Issued my first Forfeit yesterday

[maineblue]

Christian schools in my experience have some of the worst behavior out there. In a JV game a couple of years ago between a school that is in the country, and a Christian school from the city, I had a bench restriction of the Christian school coach, the near ejection of one player for language and almost had a fight.

[EMBUAump]

The state that I'm in if a manager coach or player contacts a game official in a high school contest they are ban for life.

[big]

Originally Posted by EMBUAump

The state that I'm in if a manager coach or player contacts a game official in a high school contest they are ban for life.

Is that intentional only or does it include unintentional too? Seems a little harsh to me for incidental contact. I can see where it would come in to effect if there was contact with the intent to cause harm to the official. Just my $.02.

[EMBUAump]

Originally Posted by big

Is that intentional only or does it include unintentional too? Seems a little harsh to me for incidental contact. I can see where it would come in to effect if there was contact with the intent to cause harm to the official. Just my $.02.

intentional contact bumping, grabbing, pushing and so on.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by maineblue

Christian schools in my experience have some of the worst behavior out there. In a JV game a couple of years ago between a school that is in the country, and a Christian school from the city, I had a bench restriction of the Christian school coach, the near ejection of one player for language and almost had a fight.

Sorry, but as a parent of three players in private schools, an ICCL umpire, and an ICCL coach, I find your statement to be completely ridiculous!

I would say your experience is limited in working these games and you encountered a few anomolies.


Tim.

[Texas Aggie]

56: why exactly is his statement ridiculous? Do you have info that would show it to be untrue? If true, how can the STATEMENT be ridiculous?

Just because you have three kids in private schools, and umpire and coach in private school leagues doesn't mean this stuff doesn't happen. I'm a strong Christian, have worked various sports for years for mostly public and a few private schools and have witnessed less than professional behavior from private school coaches and less than Christian behavior from their students. Doesn't mean I have anything bad to say about private schools in general, but I do think the coaches and administration of those schools need to accept the fact that they must have behavior from all individuals a step or two above what's expected in general sporting events.

There's nothing unreasonable about that.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

What DG said.

Plus, I'm not shy to tell catchers to move up closer. I put them where I want them, which is catching strikes.

My favorite trick is to move up to where they were set up and they have no choice but to move closer to the plate.

You may become shy if you ever verbally re-position a catcher and he gets hurt and informs the coach that his injury wouldn't have happened if the umpire had not made him adjust his position.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

56: why exactly is his statement ridiculous? Do you have info that would show it to be untrue? If true, how can the STATEMENT be ridiculous?

Just because you have three kids in private schools, and umpire and coach in private school leagues doesn't mean this stuff doesn't happen. I'm a strong Christian, have worked various sports for years for mostly public and a few private schools and have witnessed less than professional behavior from private school coaches and less than Christian behavior from their students. Doesn't mean I have anything bad to say about private schools in general, but I do think the coaches and administration of those schools need to accept the fact that they must have behavior from all individuals a step or two above what's expected in general sporting events.

There's nothing unreasonable about that.

Sure it happens in parochial schools. There's no disputing that. I guess I over reacted when his claim was that the problem is worse in Christian schools. I just don't believe that to be true as a general statement. I read the post again and see he's just relating his personal experience, and there's no way anyone outside of his area can dispute that. I don't want to seem holier-than-thou, but I believe the private schools should model only exemplary behavior when it comes to a code of conduct, far above those so often displayed in the public school systems. Maybe I'm setting the standard too high for our participants as to my expectations.


Tim.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

What DG said.

Plus, I'm not shy to tell catchers to move up closer. I put them where I want them, which is catching strikes.

My favorite trick is to move up to where they were set up and they have no choice but to move closer to the plate.

Well, Steve, I think you should be shy about coaching a catcher on where to set up. He has a coach and it's his responsibility. If the catcher want's to set up too close or too far back it's on him when his pitcher can't buy a strike. Let the coach handle it.


$.02

Tim.

[Texas Aggie]

I don't work baseball, but I disagree telling him to move up is coaching. That's similar in basketball to saying "this is a spot throw in, so stay put" or "you can run the line." Or even, "blue 23, get your hands off."

There's also guys in football that think its coaching to tell players on the end who are supposed to be on the line (or off of it) to move up or get back, as the case may be. Although I agree that you should limit such discussion above, say, 9th grade games, I still don't think its coaching. I'm going to tell the defender he's offsides if he's lined up in the neutral zone and I have a chance to. If he doesn't get back, I'll throw a flag just like I would if the offense stays in an illegal formation.

I don't think its coaching unless you, by your actions or statements, are giving one team a clear advantage over the other. Telling a kid to "lay off that curve ball because I'm not calling a strike on it" is one thing. Telling a catcher to move up when he may not be aware he's too far back is another. If he's missing balls, that's affecting you as an umpire. The kid swinging isn't affecting you.

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I don't work baseball, but I disagree telling him to move up is coaching. That's similar in basketball to saying "this is a spot throw in, so stay put" or "you can run the line."

I don't agree with your examples. In your basketball case, you informing the player of the rule governing the play. Also, they don't get to choose where they take the ball out. That too is decided by rule.

In baseball, the rule is the catcher must be in the catcher's box, period. There is no rule as to the exact position he must be in inside the box. Just like a batter.

I don't agree with telling the catcher where to set-up, for all the reasons already stated against it. Besides, how the heck do I know what pitch the pitcher is going to throw, and where the catcher should set up for it ? Then, there are the catchers who start out in one spot, then move to the spot they need to be after the pitcher begins their motion.

Telling the catcher where to be is worse than coaching, it's controlling the game. If you put the catcher in the wrong place, you could make a strike look like a ball, and vise versa.

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by maineblue

Christian schools in my experience have some of the worst behavior out there.

Sadly enough, I have to agree. Over the years, I have had more trouble with Christian schools than all other schools put together.

I had to run another Assistant coach of a Christian team again today;

Christian team is ahead, 10 - 0 over the visitors in the bottom of the 4th.

Their batter hits a blooper down the 1st base line, just past 1st. F1 circles around to make the play. I am standing on the line looking out, about 10' from the play. F1 is standing with both feet in fair territory, reaches out into foul territory (his entire arm) and makes contact with the ball, which pops out of his glove, hits the ground and comes to rest in fair territory. I call Foul Ball. Christian teams *** (3 letter abbrev. for Assistant) coach on first goes crazy, arguing it is fair because it rested in fair territory, and F1 was standing in fair territory when he made contact. I got him calmed down, told him what I saw, informed him of the rule, and got him to go back to his spot, without ejecting him.

One batter later, we have R1 & R2, 0 outs (IFR). B3 hits a low blooper down 1st base line. R1 takes a step toward 2nd, then decides to go back to 1st, in doing so, he runs smack into F1 who was charging the ball to make the catch, and knocks him out of the play. I kill the play, call Interference, call R1 out, and send B3 to 1st base. Coach goes ballistic again, saying the Batter should be out, and R1 returns to 1st. I immediately dumped him. My partner, not sure who was out and who wasn't, comes to me to ask who should be out and who should be on base. After I explain the rule to him, while this coach is now claiming it should have been an IFR (ball was too low, and would have been caught on the run). I head back to my position C. This coach now approaches my partner and starts in on him, and my partner talks to him about it for several minutes !!!! At this point, the visitor's coach is yelling that we need to get the game going, that I had already ejected the coach, and that my partner should not be taking the time to explain anything to an assistant coach (very refreshing). I had to tell the home team manager (who as usual was standing back just watching) to get him off the field or the game was going to be over. He did, we finished, and the home team (Christian team) won in the top of the 5th, 10 - 0.

But once again, here you have a Christian team that is slaughtering their opponents, nit picking and complaining, while the losing (non-Christian team) is once again taking the loss with dignity. I will say though, at the top of the 5th inning, when F1 came back in, he apologized for his coaches behavior. I thanked him. Maybe the coaches should attend some of the schools classes.

[big]

Once again I say that just because they coach/attend a Christian school doesn't make them a Chrsitian. Going to church doesn't make you a Chrsitian any more then going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger. The Bible says you can tell a TRUE Christian by their deeds!

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by big

The Bible says you can tell a TRUE Christian by their deeds!

I would have to agree with you 1000 % on that.

But if your going to choose a coach for a Christian HS, I think you should choose a Christian coach. Every one of them. They not only coach the team, they represent the school, and everything it stands for. Knowing the sport is not enough. They need to have the same beliefs the school was founded on, and believes in.

Just my humble opinion (HMO).

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I don't work baseball, but I disagree telling him to move up is coaching. That's similar in basketball to saying "this is a spot throw in, so stay put" or "you can run the line." Or even, "blue 23, get your hands off."

No. Telling the catcher to move up so you can get a better view is like you telling the center to stop posting up because he's getting in your way.

The players play. We umpire. The first time you tell a catcher to move up for your convenience, and he has a passed ball because he's not where he is used to being, you've negatively affected the game. I have no problem with (if asked) telling a coach that bad positioning by the catcher is causing your position behind the catcher to be not ideal, so it's possible you're missing some strikes. But telling the CATCHER to move is wrong.

Early in my career, in a game I was observing, an old smitty PU told a catcher to move up twice, and on the very next pitch, the batter hit the catcher's glove hard. Catcher had to be replaced, by a kid who had no idea what he was doing back there. Coach had to be replaced, as his (justified, in my mind) tirade at PU was rather protracted. And when all the facts came to the board, the umpire was reprimanded.