Had a live one yesterday

[mikesears]

Worked two Jr High games yesterday (Game 1 was 7th graders, game 2 was 8th graders).

Head coach for the 7th graders was on my partner and I the entire game. During the 8th grade game, he is now the "assistant" and still gave us an earful. Probably should have warned the head coach, then (no doubt it would have happened) stuck the assistant with a "T" when he blabbed again. I really don't remember when this situation happened but hear it is: Second game is real ugly. No-one can control the ball, both teams are over-aggressive with lots of fouls and held-balls. In a word, "UGLY". During a held ball, I call the arrow one way. Coach for this a**hole's team says it should be the other direction. I go to the table and ask the official scorer "which direction?" She says the direction the arrow is correct. Trying to prove a point, the coach asked his scorer and his scorer had it the other direction. Now I know I MUST go with the official scorer's direction unless I have definite reason to go the other way. I didn't so I go with the official scorers direction. This 8th GRADE ASSISTANT COACH (who was 7th grade head coach) says, "At least someone [his scorer] knows what the right call was". Would you have T'd him for that? I said to him, "Not one more word!!! I don't play that game!" He had the b*lls to say, "What did I say?" with that wounded puppy-dog look.

From previous posts, I realize I have been relying too much on the "T" as a way to control coaches instead of working with coaches. But this guy was a real a**hole for the entire length of both games. I really regretted not giving him the "T" as I feel he was most deserving. I have been trying to work on coach management to avoid giving technicals but this guy was unmanageable!

** I am going to post another situation that relates to this same guy (different ref-different night) **

[Indy_Ref]

if this was the first time you were subjected to his antics, I may have passed as you did. If this is the second (or more) time you've had him, I think I would have stuck him.

On second thought, after you said, "Not one more word..." And he actually said, "What..." You kinda drew a line in the sand and he technically crossed it, didn't he? Maybe I just would have stuck him and let his head coach take care of him once and for all.

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Jan 10th, 2001 at 11:07 AM]

[moose69]

If the assistant coach had been riding you all game and fianlly came out with that line, WHACK!. However, if that was the first bad thing he said, I probably would have had a chat with the head coach telling him or her to keep his bench under control.

Tyler

[glind]

I have worked many junior high games like the one you described, (very hard to get a flow to the game). Those types of games are hard to ref without a coach getting all over you. I had one last year were the seventh grade coach (first game also) was riding my partner and I pretty hard right near the end of the game my partner gave him T because he jumped right out on the floor towards him (he was trail) and was yelling at something he didn't like. He came out as the assitant for the 8th grade game and was not to bad until after half then he got going again and got another T after he jumped up off the bench again to yell and took a step on the floor.

A question I have is can he be removed for getting to T's eventhough they are in different games?

[co2ice]

Mike: If this guy had been riding my butt all night and then made a sarcastic comment like "at least someone knows whats going on here." I'd have rung him up right then. Usually thats the only thing that will stop them. I will have do give you a big A+++++ for diplomacy though. Using a T to control situations is'nt always the best policy but I've seen bad situations turn UGLY when I feel a T was needed and should have been used. But don't let your dislike of a coach carry over and affect your next game with him. I've seen this really backfire on refs before. Good Luck and keep cool!

[Brian Watson]

From experience, nover ever say - "Not one more word". I actually had a coach say "word" (Last time I ever said that). You're stuck once you say that, and there is no place to wiggle.

Give him the hand, and do your best to control the bench. If, after that, he is still going bang him. Also, when he is the assistant you should not hear a single word out of him, if you do tell the HC. Remind him, that if you bang him, it is an indirect and he loses the box. After that, if he keeps going, back yourself up and hit him.

I try to do as much as possible to not T coaches, but you have to keep control. Once you draw the line, enforce it - and don't think twice, it is not your fault he can't control himself.

[JugglingReferee]

C'mon guys, this is easy.

It's a definite T.

..Mike

[mikesears]

My problem was that I warned this guy several times and didn't back it up. I'm really angry with myself for sounding like one of those parents who threatens but never backs it up. I should have banged him right there as the head coach when he was out of control. When he was the assistant, I probably should have talked to the head coach about this guy too. Next time I know.

One of the refs in my association likes to go up to the head coach (with the assistant sitting right there) in these situations and say (without even looking at the assistant), "Coach I don't want to hear anymore from your assistant. He's here to assist you coach, not ride the officials. If he addresses me about anything other than to signal 30 or full time-out, he gets a technical, you get an indirect, and loose the right to stand up here and talk. Now please get him under control!"

[Dan_ref]

Mike, as you know by now assistants get *zero* warning,
and that means zero. Not a bad idea to go to the head coach
and tell him that he needs to control his bench, but after
that whack 'em! The problem at these games is many of the
coaches are kinda new and they act like they just
graduated the Bob Knight School of Basketball Etiquette
and Charm. The good ones eventually get how the system
works, the bad ones usually don't stick around long enough.
(Unfortunately not always.) And to make it worse
the basketball is usually not good at all and you'll end
up taking heat for the general lack of skills. You know:
"Let 'em play" to "Blow the whistle" and everything in
between.

It's good that your trying both sides of the coin, being a hard ass and being a diplomat. Soon enough you'll settle into what's right for you.

[mikesears]

Dan: ZERO-tolerance is what I will be practicing from now one. Would some preventive officiating work here? Would you issue a warning to the head coach? Or would you just bang the assistant for the very first infraction or let the first one slide then get him for the next one?

I will probably issue a single warning to the head coach for infractions by his assistants, then BANG!


JUGREF:
Everyone seems to agree that he should have seen the "T". Thanks for your input and the definitive post. -- T Him!
If I'm ever in that situation again, expect to hear about how I issued the technical!


Brian W:
Probably not a good choice of words on my part. If this assistant coach had backed me into a corner and said a smart-aleck remark like that to me, he would have been rung up. I tried the "stop" hand and it didn't work. Yeah, a T was definitely called for. Thanks for relaying your experience. I will choose my words a little more carefully next time. I will probably use the old "I've heard enough" routine.

co2ice:
Thanks for the encouragment to continue using diplomacy. I'm learning that diplomacy is my first option, but when diplomacy doesn't work to back it up with a "T". "Speak softly and carry a back stick!"

glind:
I think this is an experience many JR High officials can relate to. You and everyone else seem to agree, "T". There isn't anything in the rules that would allow you to eject a coach for having two technicals in two different games. However, if a coach jumped out on the floot at me and I accidentally ran into him (and he'd been a jerk all evening) OR DEFINITELY if he ran into me, I would consider that "intentionally contacting an official" and would have tossed him.

moose69:
You and I sound like we will work on the same philosophy. Warn then bang!

Indy_ref:
Yeah, I should have. He put the ASS in Assistant Coach.


General consensus is that I should have whacked this wacko.

[pizanno]

but had to get my 2 cents in:

think of it this way...whack him, and subsequent crews won't have to worry (unless he doesn't learn his lesson).

Your colleagues will appreciate it...

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by glind
A question I have is can he be removed for getting to T's eventhough they are in different games?

No, unless there is some sort of league rule that adresses this.

[williebfree]

I want to say a wholehearted THANKS to all the "volunteers" who coach youth athletics.... MOST are great with kids, teaching fundamentals and sportsmanship, and give it their all. Unfortunately we are forced to discuss the extremely small fraction of these coaches that really bring a "bad rap" to the majority.

In the original posting by Mike Sears... I believe a "T" after the proverbial "line in the sand" was necessary. Sometimes they are unavoidable. I also believe the posts that advocate the "I've heard enough" response, give you (the official) some leeway as to how you deal with further dialogue with the bench.


"I also admit, hindsight is 20/20." (Maybe this should be my new signature)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mikesears
Head coach for the 7th graders was on my partner and I the entire game. During the 8th grade game, he is now the "assistant" and still gave us an earful. Probably should have warned the head coach, then (no doubt it would have happened) stuck the assistant with a "T" when he blabbed again. I really don't remember when this situation happened but hear it is: Second game is real ugly. No-one can control the ball, both teams are over-aggressive with lots of fouls and held-balls. In a word, "UGLY". During a held ball, I call the arrow one way. Coach for this a**hole's team says it should be the other direction. I go to the table and ask the official scorer "which direction?" She says the direction the arrow is correct. Trying to prove a point, the coach asked his scorer and his scorer had it the other direction. Now I know I MUST go with the official scorer's direction unless I have definite reason to go the other way. I didn't so I go with the official scorers direction. This 8th GRADE ASSISTANT COACH (who was 7th grade head coach) says, "At least someone [his scorer] knows what the right call was". Would you have T'd him for that? I said to him, "Not one more word!!! I don't play that game!" He had the b*lls to say, "What did I say?" with that wounded puppy-dog look.

From previous posts, I realize I have been relying too much on the "T" as a way to control coaches instead of working with coaches. But this guy was a real a**hole for the entire length of both games. I really regretted not giving him the "T" as I feel he was most deserving. I have been trying to work on coach management to avoid giving technicals but this guy was unmanageable!

I'm a little late getting in on this one but here's my take.

Don't use T's to control Head Coaches. But asst. coaches! Don't listen to s**t an asst. has to say. He gets no warning. The head coach gets no warning to shut his guy up. When an asst. coach pops off, he's gets stuck in the ass right then. I don't care if he was the head coach druing the previous game. He's sitting down for this game and he has no input.

Again, manage and be approachable to head coaches. Asst. coaches that pop off get no respect and no second chance.

[Hawks Coach]

I knew I was a head coach for some reason! It really is good to be the gov!

Seriously, I never knew about the zero tolerance standard for assistants - you teach me something new every day. Oh well, it looks like just one more reason I get to do all the talkin'.