Situation from yesterday

Junker · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 08, 2004, 11:00am

I worked a tournament all weekend, great way to get ready for the year, but had an odd situation at the end of a 6th grade girls final (imagine, an odd situation in 6th grade girls?!). Anyway, I'm T, my partner is L. He is inbounding the ball on the baseline after held ball # 467 in the game, game is tied 18 all. A is inbounding B is defending. A1 is running short on the 5 second count and throws the ball at B1's feet. The ball bounces back and hits A1 oob. My partner "screws the pooch" as they say and calls A ball and gets the girls ready to inbound. B coach starts to try to get my partner's attention but gets mine and wants me to come over and talk. I don't go as my partner is already handing the ball to the inbounder. We end up going to overtime and between overtime B coach wants to know why I wouldn't talk to him. I told him that he needed to call a timeout if he wanted to talk to me. I was T and had now idea what Coach B was complaining about . I tried to explain to Coach B that if there was a question about a judgement that my partner and I can talk about it, but I couldn't hold up the game to go talk to him without a timeout. Looking back, I should have explained that this was not a correctable error so we just play on. I did tell my partner he did the right thing in getting the ball in quickly because had we reversed his call after Coach B complained, we would have had a madhouse on our hands. Luckily B won in overtime. Anyway, sorry this is long, but any thoughts on what could have been done differently, besides not making the mistake in the first place? Thanks in advance.

Dan_ref · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 08, 2004, 11:19am

IMO there would have been nothing wrong with blowing the whistle & stopping the game for a word with Coach B at that point. The play seemed unusual, the coach wanted an explanation, wouldn't have hurt to give it to him especially since it looks like you knew your partner might have had it wrong anyway. As for getting the ball in quickly to avoid trouble...nah. If something unusual happens there's nothing wrong with making sure the crew got it right, even if it takes a few seconds to huddle and another few seconds to explain what just happened including why you are or are not changing the original call.

Of course, don't take too long dong this & don't do it too often!

Grail · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 08, 2004, 12:03pm

If I knew my partner was wrong on who last touched the ball, I would blow my whistle and discuss it with my partner. It's up to him to change the call.

The play you describe could just as easily have been a pass into traffic that is tipped without your partner seeing it. If you have definite knowledge, let your partner know and he can decide if he thinks it should be changed.

Kelvin green · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 08, 2004, 12:38pm

Game is tied.
You see your partner "make a mistake". You saw it so you can sure as heck that a ton of others thought there was something wrong.
Blow the whistle and go in and ask. If you dont you know the coach is going to be asking...

All you have to do is go into your partner and ask what he saw. If it hit A OOB -tell him that it needs to be B's ball...

At least you have an idea of what you will tell coach B by the time you get to trail area.

There is nothing by rule that requires a coach to call time out to talk to an official. You can always hold up a gme to get the call right. Especially if it a rule interpretation and this may have been.

Had you reversed the call, you may have gotten it right. You get the coaches together and explain what was seen and what rule is (maybe admitting that rule was interpreted wrong) and it is B's ball by rule.

You may have a crowd that doesnt like the fact you got the call right, so what? If a referee doesnt have enough guts to get the call right then we have no business being on the floor.

The question is you make a mistake. B should have had the ball under their own basket.

My personal opinion. Correctable errors are not the only things correctable in the game and dont get stuck in that mindset.

We can correct arrows that are not right. (There are no provisions if we screw up and inbound incorrectly but) Table doesnt switch arrow... and we notice they dont so we just leave it? no we fix it.

We know a player has had 5 fouls but we let it go because the book doesnt tell us they have been DQ'd.

We check the scorebook and there is a discrepancy in the score but we just ignore it because if we take time to fix it or fix it the crowd will get mad?

Trail watches a shot hit nothing but air and goes OOB, partner hands back to A because he thought it was tipped but you know it was an airball but we need to get it in play and it was a mistake of judgement and can't be corrected?

You can see where I am going.... GET IT RIGHT!

Junker · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 08, 2004, 01:04pm

I agree that if I had seen the violation, I would have talked it over with him. I actually didn't know what the coach was upset about until we discussed it between the 4th and overtime. I was watching my area. That was the main reason I didn't go over to the coach before the ball was inbounded. I saw no reason to talk to him unless he asks for a timeout.

NCAAREF · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 08, 2004, 03:20pm

Didn't you say that you saw your partner "screw the pooch"? So you did see the violation as you put it, or actually a mistake by your partner. Blow you whistle, stop the game and as everyone else has put it get it right!

Camron Rust · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 08, 2004, 06:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by NCAAREF
Didn't you say that you saw your partner "screw the pooch"? So you did see the violation as you put it, or actually a mistake by your partner. Blow you whistle, stop the game and as everyone else has put it get it right!

He didn't say he saw it. He just gave a rundown of what happened...perhaps from the later conversation.

Junker · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 09, 2004, 09:48am

Yep, I didn't see it. My partner came to me on the way to the table for the overtime and told me what happenend. It was then that I understood what the coach was complaining about. My thoughts on it were that he did the right thing because stopping and reversing would have led to more problems, especially if the other coach would have saw me talking to Coach B before we changed the call. Getting it right is always the best, but sometimes you have to ride out your mistakes.

Dan_ref · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 09, 2004, 10:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by Junker
Yep, I didn't see it. My partner came to me on the way to the table for the overtime and told me what happenend. It was then that I understood what the coach was complaining about. My thoughts on it were that he did the right thing because stopping and reversing would have led to more problems, especially if the other coach would have saw me talking to Coach B before we changed the call. Getting it right is always the best, but sometimes you have to ride out your mistakes.

Your partner knew he had the wrong call? Your partner knew Coach B saw the wrong call was made? And your partner didn't address it? Not good.

If I was Coach B there would not have been an overtime because I would have ended up with a T in that situation.

Anyway, you asked for advice and I'll give mine again: don't be afraid to fix obvious mistakes. Don't be afraid to answer questions from the coach, don't be afraid to give explanations. It's much better to take the heat for fixing an obvious screw-up than it is to take the heat for being too stubborn to acknowledge something might be wrong.

Junker · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 09, 2004, 10:46am

Dan_ref, I agree with you that we shouldn't be afraid to answer coaches' questions, but in that situaion, I didn't think it would have been in our best interest as a crew to hold up the game while I walked across the floor to talk to the coach and then change a call. If it happens again, I'll evaluate the situation considering the thoughts shared here and see what fits best. Thanks.

DownTownTonyBrown · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 09, 2004, 11:12am

I had the follow-on game...

Same situation happened in my game...

I however, gave the ball to the correct team that played good defense...

Lot's of screaming over that one...

It's almost as if someone was educating the fans/players/coaches incorrectly. Everyone seemed to want me to give the ballback to the idiot that stood out-of-bounds and let the ball hit him.

Where's the love... I mean consistency, brother?

You should have gotten the call correct, for my sake and that of your fellow officials.

SamIAm · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 09, 2004, 11:23am

It sounds like you did fine Junker. As I understand the situation, the official right next to the ball made a call. You did not see enough to determine the accuracy of the call. After the fact, the other official describes what happened and the two of you realizes the call was screwed up.

Coaches yell alot. Don't stop the game everytime.
Each posession is potentially worth 2 or 3 points (without a foul). If you wouldn't stop the game with 6 minutes left in the first half to debate a call, don't stop the game for the same call with 6 seconds left.

Dan_ref as a coach, if you don't let the game get to overtime because of your frustration, you have taken the game away from 6th graders. How stupid is that! It is a game the girls had a chance to win and did because their coach was smarter than that.

Dan_ref · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 09, 2004, 11:25am

Quote:

Originally posted by SamIAm
It sounds like you did fine Junker. As I understand the situation, the official right next to the ball made a call. You did not see enough to determine the accuracy of the call. After the fact, the other official describes what happened and the two of you realizes the call was screwed up.

Coaches yell alot. Don't stop the game everytime.
Each posession is potentially worth 2 or 3 points (without a foul). If you wouldn't stop the game with 6 minutes left in the first half to debate a call, don't stop the game for the same call with 6 seconds left.

Dan_ref as a coach, if you don't let the game get to overtime because of your frustration, you have taken the game away from 6th graders. How stupid is that! It is a game the girls had a chance to win and did because their coach was smarter than that.

Sam, I think the game was already taken away by the guys who let an obviously bad OOB call stand.

SamIAm · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 09, 2004, 01:44pm

"Sam, I think the game was already taken away by the guys who let an obviously bad OOB call stand."

Dan-ref, The game couldn't have been taken away. They won.

Correct me if I am wrong, Junker did not make the call and was no where near the call to judge right or wrong. All he knows is that coach B doesn't like the call. L Official
learns later in discussion with Junker, "Oops I pooch screwed", the call.
"That is the end of the part to correct."

You can't stop the game everytime a coach yells. Maybe it is easier to look at like this. All errors are not correctable. The only fix is to get it right the first time, through training, experience, and more experience.

Dan_ref · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 09, 2004, 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SamIAm
"Sam, I think the game was already taken away by the guys who let an obviously bad OOB call stand."

Dan-ref, The game couldn't have been taken away. They won.

Who eventually won is irrelevant. Coach B's team had a possession stolen from them. That's all that matters.

Quote:

Correct me if I am wrong, Junker did not make the call and was no where near the call to judge right or wrong. All he knows is that coach B doesn't like the call. L Official
learns later in discussion with Junker, "Oops I pooch screwed", the call.
"That is the end of the part to correct."

You can't stop the game everytime a coach yells. Maybe it is easier to look at like this. All errors are not correctable. The only fix is to get it right the first time, through training, experience, and more experience.

Where does it say Coach B was yelling?

If getting it right the first time is the only way to do this why does the ncaa make their best trained & experienced officials use a monitor to fix calls?