Base Running Question

[Justme]

Originally Posted by U of M Sam

I think what is being asked is if anyone has seen a baserunner advancing from 2nd to 3rd cut inside 3rd and miss the base on purpose (to shorten the distance to the plate) while the umpires (2 man system) were watching the ball hit to the outfield.
I observed this while watching my son's HS varsity team, 2 years ago, and the run scored without question. The umpires, opposing coach, many fans and many players DID NOT see the runner intentionally miss 3rd base. Guess what? They were all watching the fly ball. I would think that this could have been a live or dead ball appeal by the defense although the game continued as nothing wrong had happened. I saw this as I was curious if the PU would watch the bases being touched (or not touched) by the runners since the BU went out to track the fly ball to the outfield.
Sam

Thanks U od M Sam, you explained my situation much better than I did.

We have had some varsity teams in our association run this "play" during some scrimmages this season. It seems to be happening more and more in CA, according to the CIF. I was wondering if any of you other umpires have seen this happen where you work?

In our association meeting last night we were told that if this happens we are to eject the player for unsportsmanlike like behavior and warn the coach (other associations are also ejecting the coach).

[BigUmp56]

Maybe it's just me, but don't you think ejecting a player for intentionally missing a base is over the top?

The rules have a proscribed penalty for the infraction if it's appealed, so why would your association want to add to the rules?

Do you also eject if a runner fails to tag on a long fly ball intentionally?


Tim.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Maybe it's just me, but don't you think ejecting a player for intentionally missing a base is over the top?

The rules have a proscribed penalty for the infraction if it's appealed, so why would your association want to add to the rules?

Do you also eject if a runner fails to tag on a long fly ball intentionally?


Tim.

First, I have no input into how our association wants us to rule on things like this, I was just asking others to find out their experiences.

As they explained things to us last night, missing a base would still be an appeal play per the rule book BUT if a player intentionally cuts several feet off by cutting inside then it is unsportsmanlike behavior (A.K.A. cheating).

[BigUmp56]

Don't take this as a personal attack because that's in no way my intention. I just don't see this as a good idea in any way, shape, or form.

There are many forms of 'cheating' we see in baseball. What about stealing signs, or intentionally BOO?

This is something that's never been addresses in our association. There's been no need to. There is a penalty in place, and that's what we use.


Tim.

[U of M Sam]

Originally Posted by Justme

First, I have no input into how our association wants us to rule on things like this, I was just asking others to find out their experiences.

As they explained things to us last night, missing a base would still be an appeal play per the rule book BUT if a player intentionally cuts several feet off by cutting inside then it is unsportsmanlike behavior (A.K.A. cheating).

WOW! This seems like a "made up" rule. In this situation would you allow the run and if no appeal occurred then eject the runner? What if no appeal and other runners scored on the same play? How are we as umpires to decide if a player or coach is "cheating"?
I trust it is best for umpires to enforce and properly apply the rules. Making "adjustments" as indicated will just create confusion.
Sam

[LMan]

Exactly. If faced with this 'guidance' from my association, I would simply ignore it.....will cause many more problems than it purports to solve.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by U of M Sam

WOW! This seems like a "made up" rule. In this situation would you allow the run and if no appeal occurred then eject the runner? What if no appeal and other runners scored on the same play? How are we as umpires to decide if a player or coach is "cheating"?
I trust it is best for umpires to enforce and properly apply the rules. Making "adjustments" as indicated will just create confusion.
Sam

My association feels that it is cheating for a coach to teach a player to intentionally miss a base by several feet in order to gain an advantage over the defense. They feel that by ejecting the player (and in some associations the coach) it sends a strong message to everyone that cheating of any kind will not be tolerated. We are also required to mention this new ruling during our pre-game meeting with the coaches, kind of preventive umpiring.

Personally, I feel that I could handle it using the current rules, an appeal play, regardless of how much the runner cuts off. A missed base is a missed base, regardless of by how much or why the runner missed it. I am concerned that some umpires, especially the rookies (3 years or less) will be calling this for a base missed by inches. That would not be good.

BUT

Whether I agree with my associations decision in this matter or not I am obligated to enforce the rules as my association dictates.

[mcrowder]

Does your association also feel like they should eject a player if they leave 2 full steps early on a fly ball? This is just as much cheating as rounding a base by 5 feet. And in exactly the same way - something that can and should be appealled by an alert defense.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Justme

Whether I agree with my associations decision in this matter or not I am obligated to enforce the rules as my association dictates.

I understand completely, and agree. It's just that this is a judgement call all the way, and in this instance my personal judgement would be that the appeal rules already address this situation satisfactorily.

I would have to hear a coach screaming to a runner "miss the bag! miss the bag!" during a play to entertain the notion of ejecting someone.

[greymule]

I coached HS baseball long ago. I cannot imagine actually teaching kids, as a way to gain an advantage, to cut across the infield--essentially commit a "gross miss" (though I don't know whether Fed makes such a distinction). Even acknowledging that such coaching would be slimy at best, how could anyone be confident that no one would see an obvious miss of a base? And what runner is going to judge that, on this particular play, he doesn't have time to touch the base and so it's worth risking a ridiculous short-cut to score the run?

In any case, I don't see a USC call. It's simply an appeal. If the defense doesn't see a gross miss, shame on them.

Putting vaseline on the ball is cheating. But is it cheating for an outfielder who has trapped a ball to hold the glove up as if he made the catch?

I'm reminded of an old Disney movie ("Moochie and the Little League") in which Moochie traps a ball in the outfield but the umpire calls it a catch for the last out of the game and Moochie's team wins "the championship." When the opposing kids appeal to the umpire, he says, "I'm sorry boys. That's the way I saw it." However, Moochie, who cannot tell a lie, goes to the umpire and admits he caught the ball on the bounce. So the umps score the 2 runs and Moochie's team loses.

[btdt]

Around here they call it "Cut Three". In certain sitch when umpires are likly not to looking toward third, the runner cuts inside by several feet and arrives at home a bit sooner.

Don't see it in high school around here often as most coaches won't teach that. But if you keep eyes open in summer ball, some coaches believe it is only cheating if you get caught.

Even if the umpire does detect the "cut" he can't do anything until there is an appeal, unless you feel ok making up your own rules.

[chuckfan1]

Had always heard of this set play, R2 cutting 3rd, but had never seen it, until....
Couple weeks ago, HS Varsity. R2 and R3 one out. Batter lays down bunt, up first baseline, close to the mound. As PU I watch for the usual. BR thrown out at 1st.
I see R3 touch home, and BOOM, right behind him comes R2. But he was coming in at an angle that was between the mound and 3rd.
I knew what had happenned. If R2 was trying to score from second on a bunt, he would have been steaming around 3rd, and he would have been coming from the direction of the 3rd base coaching box.
Def coach starts yelling for F1 to throw to 3rd. Which he does, and upon appeal, I ring the out. End of inning.
Off mgr, coaching 3rd, comes down the line, and vry calmly, almost monotone, says...."Jeff, whatcha have?"..... I say..... "Dave, your runner missed 3rd." All he says is.... "Ok, Ill talk to him."
That was it. Now you know if R2 had come anywhere near 3rd, off mgr would have been going nuts, due to a run being taken off the board.
Couple innings later, he comes up to me between innings and says.."Jeff, your the first guy whos seen that, now we have a play, where our runner cuts sharp at 3rd, but not that bad.." I said Dave...."Im not saying you did this (but of course I know he did) but we both know there are teams that do that as a set play".....
Dave: "Im just giving you a compliment"
He starts to walk away, then says "Arnt you guys supposed to be looking at other things?" Which of course verified to me that this was a set play, that theyve done it in the past and would do it again in the future.
I notified our Instructional Chair, to let anyone who is working that schools games in the future to be aware.
And that type of set play IS cheating. An oufielder holding the ball up on a diving catch, he may or may not have caught is not "cheating", just trying to sell the call.

[greymule]

And that type of set play IS cheating.

I agree that if they're coaching that play and doing it intentionally, it qualifies as cheating, even if the defense is sleeping. It's not really the same as selling a catch. It's in the same category as deliberately sending up the wrong batter in a kids' game, where everyone involved assumes a certain level of honesty, in the hopes the defense won't notice and poor hitters can be skipped.

Famous LL play that occurred around here 30 years ago but is still talked about:

Runners on 2B and 3B, 2 out. With play stopped but the ball still live, the adult 3B coach holds out his hand and calls to the pitcher, "Son, let me see that ball." The kid throws the ball to the coach, who moves out of the way and screams for his runners to get going. (I don't know how the umpires handled it at the time, but I suspect the posters on this board would all rule the same way.)

[LMan]

In reading your sitch..... if the defense didn't see it, and the umpires didn't see it, how did anyone know the 'play' was run?


You gotta be kidding....another "solution" in search of a problem. 'Oh gee, it just doesn't seem fair, how can we invent a rule to 'fix' this?'

There's a specific section of the rulebook that addresses this very issue: it's called, "Appeals."

If it occurs and NO ONE appeals, then it is legitimized - end of story. If there's an appeal, rule on it. If the umpires did not see the missed bag, then they erred, simple as that. You cannot call what you did not see.

Why penalize the offense for the umpires' mistake, and subsequently the defense's mistake in not seeing the missed base?

[U of M Sam]

Originally Posted by Justme

Thanks U od M Sam, you explained my situation much better than I did.

We have had some varsity teams in our association run this "play" during some scrimmages this season. It seems to be happening more and more in CA, according to the CIF. I was wondering if any of you other umpires have seen this happen where you work?

In our association meeting last night we were told that if this happens we are to eject the player for unsportsmanlike like behavior and warn the coach (other associations are also ejecting the coach).

(Justme): I am glad my post helped.
As mentioned in another reply, I am sure this did not happen (or at lease not as much) when the umpire had the automatic call on a missed base and the runner advanced to the next base. With the appeal process in place, I think some coaches "teach" the missed base "play". I know that when I am PU, I make sure to watch bases being touched in the event of an appeal by the defensive coach. Of course, when a base is missed by the runner and there is no appeal from the defensive coach we just continue the game with no mention or indication of the missed base.
Sam