Base Running Question

[mcrowder]

Does your association also feel like they should eject a player if they leave 2 full steps early on a fly ball? This is just as much cheating as rounding a base by 5 feet. And in exactly the same way - something that can and should be appealled by an alert defense.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Justme

Whether I agree with my associations decision in this matter or not I am obligated to enforce the rules as my association dictates.

I understand completely, and agree. It's just that this is a judgement call all the way, and in this instance my personal judgement would be that the appeal rules already address this situation satisfactorily.

I would have to hear a coach screaming to a runner "miss the bag! miss the bag!" during a play to entertain the notion of ejecting someone.

[greymule]

I coached HS baseball long ago. I cannot imagine actually teaching kids, as a way to gain an advantage, to cut across the infield--essentially commit a "gross miss" (though I don't know whether Fed makes such a distinction). Even acknowledging that such coaching would be slimy at best, how could anyone be confident that no one would see an obvious miss of a base? And what runner is going to judge that, on this particular play, he doesn't have time to touch the base and so it's worth risking a ridiculous short-cut to score the run?

In any case, I don't see a USC call. It's simply an appeal. If the defense doesn't see a gross miss, shame on them.

Putting vaseline on the ball is cheating. But is it cheating for an outfielder who has trapped a ball to hold the glove up as if he made the catch?

I'm reminded of an old Disney movie ("Moochie and the Little League") in which Moochie traps a ball in the outfield but the umpire calls it a catch for the last out of the game and Moochie's team wins "the championship." When the opposing kids appeal to the umpire, he says, "I'm sorry boys. That's the way I saw it." However, Moochie, who cannot tell a lie, goes to the umpire and admits he caught the ball on the bounce. So the umps score the 2 runs and Moochie's team loses.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Moochie was a mook.

[smac1231]

Interesting that this would come up now ...

I can't remember which current pro player it was, but during a recent interview, he said this very same play happened in a high school championship game. Deep fly ball, less than 2 out. Both runners tag. R3 scores easily, and R2 somehow scores practically right behind him. This player said he watched his teammate (R2) not even make it to the cutout before cutting toward the 3B line and scoring right behind R3. Nobody ever saw him miss 3B by 20 feet.

He said he finally felt good, admitting it after all these years.

Just wondering ... if it's a championship game, I'm pretty sure they were employing at least a 3-man crew if not 4+ ... and with R2 and R3, there should have been an umpire in the D position (unless he went out on the play, since it was so deep) whose SOLE RESPONSIBILITY was to watch the touch at 3B.

Just another example that should be under the "What ROOKIES should know" thread: watch touches, man. I work in a college conference that actually has coaches assign bench players to an umpire, who are to inform the coach when they do not see the umpire's head turning to watch touches, which prompts the coach to tell his players to appeal ... meaning, "You did not SEE the touch."

[LMan]

Originally Posted by smac1231

I work in a college conference that actually has coaches assign bench players to an umpire, who are to inform the coach when they do not see the umpire's head turning to watch touches, which prompts the coach to tell his players to appeal ... meaning, "You did not SEE the touch."

Machts nichts to me....if I didn't see the miss, I'm not calling him out. I don't call what I don't see. Coach can appeal all he wants....if I'm wrong I'll take the heat for not observing the bag but the appeal is denied unless I saw him miss the bag.

That coaching 'strategy' makes no sense.

[btdt]

Around here they call it "Cut Three". In certain sitch when umpires are likly not to looking toward third, the runner cuts inside by several feet and arrives at home a bit sooner.

Don't see it in high school around here often as most coaches won't teach that. But if you keep eyes open in summer ball, some coaches believe it is only cheating if you get caught.

Even if the umpire does detect the "cut" he can't do anything until there is an appeal, unless you feel ok making up your own rules.

[smac1231]

Originally Posted by LMan

Machts nichts to me....if I didn't see the miss, I'm not calling him out. I don't call what I don't see. Coach can appeal all he wants....if I'm wrong I'll take the heat for not observing the bag but the appeal is denied unless I saw him miss the bag.

That coaching 'strategy' makes no sense.

LMan ... I absolutely agree with your post.

What these coaches want to do is to "get on" a guy for MAYBE not watching. Perception is reality. If the coach (or the player assigned to the umpire) PERCEIVES that we didn't watch the touch/tag up, then it's REALITY to them.

They haven't been on me, so far ... LOL

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by smac1231

Interesting that this would come up now ...

I can't remember which current pro player it was, but during a recent interview, he said this very same play happened in a high school championship game. Deep fly ball, less than 2 out. Both runners tag. R3 scores easily, and R2 somehow scores practically right behind him. This player said he watched his teammate (R2) not even make it to the cutout before cutting toward the 3B line and scoring right behind R3. Nobody ever saw him miss 3B by 20 feet.

He said he finally felt good, admitting it after all these years.

Just wondering ... if it's a championship game, I'm pretty sure they were employing at least a 3-man crew if not 4+ ... and with R2 and R3, there should have been an umpire in the D position (unless he went out on the play, since it was so deep) whose SOLE RESPONSIBILITY was to watch the touch at 3B.

Just another example that should be under the "What ROOKIES should know" thread: watch touches, man. I work in a college conference that actually has coaches assign bench players to an umpire, who are to inform the coach when they do not see the umpire's head turning to watch touches, which prompts the coach to tell his players to appeal ... meaning, "You did not SEE the touch."

Perhaps U3 saw the miss, but he was the only one.

[smac1231]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Perhaps U3 saw the miss, but he was the only one.

mbyron ... that's a great point ... apparently nobody ever appealed.

[chuckfan1]

Had always heard of this set play, R2 cutting 3rd, but had never seen it, until....
Couple weeks ago, HS Varsity. R2 and R3 one out. Batter lays down bunt, up first baseline, close to the mound. As PU I watch for the usual. BR thrown out at 1st.
I see R3 touch home, and BOOM, right behind him comes R2. But he was coming in at an angle that was between the mound and 3rd.
I knew what had happenned. If R2 was trying to score from second on a bunt, he would have been steaming around 3rd, and he would have been coming from the direction of the 3rd base coaching box.
Def coach starts yelling for F1 to throw to 3rd. Which he does, and upon appeal, I ring the out. End of inning.
Off mgr, coaching 3rd, comes down the line, and vry calmly, almost monotone, says...."Jeff, whatcha have?"..... I say..... "Dave, your runner missed 3rd." All he says is.... "Ok, Ill talk to him."
That was it. Now you know if R2 had come anywhere near 3rd, off mgr would have been going nuts, due to a run being taken off the board.
Couple innings later, he comes up to me between innings and says.."Jeff, your the first guy whos seen that, now we have a play, where our runner cuts sharp at 3rd, but not that bad.." I said Dave...."Im not saying you did this (but of course I know he did) but we both know there are teams that do that as a set play".....
Dave: "Im just giving you a compliment"
He starts to walk away, then says "Arnt you guys supposed to be looking at other things?" Which of course verified to me that this was a set play, that theyve done it in the past and would do it again in the future.
I notified our Instructional Chair, to let anyone who is working that schools games in the future to be aware.
And that type of set play IS cheating. An oufielder holding the ball up on a diving catch, he may or may not have caught is not "cheating", just trying to sell the call.

[greymule]

And that type of set play IS cheating.

I agree that if they're coaching that play and doing it intentionally, it qualifies as cheating, even if the defense is sleeping. It's not really the same as selling a catch. It's in the same category as deliberately sending up the wrong batter in a kids' game, where everyone involved assumes a certain level of honesty, in the hopes the defense won't notice and poor hitters can be skipped.

Famous LL play that occurred around here 30 years ago but is still talked about:

Runners on 2B and 3B, 2 out. With play stopped but the ball still live, the adult 3B coach holds out his hand and calls to the pitcher, "Son, let me see that ball." The kid throws the ball to the coach, who moves out of the way and screams for his runners to get going. (I don't know how the umpires handled it at the time, but I suspect the posters on this board would all rule the same way.)

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by greymule

And that type of set play IS cheating.

I agree that if they're coaching that play and doing it intentionally, it qualifies as cheating, even if the defense is sleeping. It's not really the same as selling a catch. It's in the same category as deliberately sending up the wrong batter in a kids' game, where everyone involved assumes a certain level of honesty, in the hopes the defense won't notice and poor hitters can be skipped.

Famous LL play that occurred around here 30 years ago but is still talked about:

Runners on 2B and 3B, 2 out. With play stopped but the ball still live, the adult 3B coach holds out his hand and calls to the pitcher, "Son, let me see that ball." The kid throws the ball to the coach, who moves out of the way and screams for his runners to get going. (I don't know how the umpires handled it at the time, but I suspect the posters on this board would all rule the same way.)

Why was there an adult 3B coach?

[mcrowder]

Grey, in intramurals in college, we had something called 3-pitch. Basically, the offense pitches to itself - 3 pitches per batter max (a missed 3rd pitch was simply a strikeout). There were a variety of things teams tried to do to get an advantage (1 being when your team had 2 outs on the opposing team, and a 3rd out was developing, get the heck off the field as fast as possible and throw the ball to your pitcher (which was often your 1st baseman) so that you could pitch the first pitch of the next inning before the ex-offense had time to get onto the field... another being setting up in the LH batters box and having your pitcher throw intentionally "behind" you and turn around and hit it)

One thing that occasionally worked was to have your pitcher standing near the foul line as a play developed, and then when the play "ended", putting your hand up as if to say you are ready for them to throw you the ball. If the umpire didn't kill the previous play yet (he wasn't supposed to kill it until the defense had the ball secured in the pitcher's circle), and they threw it to you, simply get out of the way - either having your runners go for an extra base or sometimes even having the ball go out of play.

Your play reminded me of that, although at least when we did it, it was college students fooling other college students... not adults fooling kids.

[greymule]

Why was there an adult 3B coach?

Common in under-12 around here. Is there a rule against it? I wouldn't know, never having done LL.