Positions B and C

[DG]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Why? What the heck is the difference?

Twenty feet.

[briancurtin]

oh well that solves it

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Why? What the heck is the difference?

The only reason I can see for B in this case (and sometimes I will go to B in this case) is when you have a crafty lefty with a close-to-a-balk-move reputation, or some weird motion. Being in B gives you a little better look at the 45 degree angle/step toward first aspect. It also lets you see the front edge/free foot (FED), or back edge/free foot (OBR) relationship for the purposes of calling balks.

All that being said, I still usually prefer C.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Our association always taught that the plate guy has the primary responsibility on the pitcher from the waist up, and the BU for the waist down, with both umpires calling all balks they see.

[David B]

Originally posted by officialtony
Thank you.
I have seen umpires move from B to C when a batter comes up batting left handed. I understood what they were doing, but didn't understand why they thought it was OK, if that's not how we are supposed to position ourselves.
I appreciate the response.

I had a game today and one of our college umpires was moving from B to C depending on the batter. I didn't ask him about it, but it was really stupid.

There is no reason to move.

As far as B, C, I try to stay in B at all times if possible. That is tried and tested for 25 years of calling all levels of baseball.

I see guys that prefer C and if I work in an association that wants me to work that way I will.

But I don't think its best and I don't teach it that way.

I find I have the best angle on a steal at 3rd from B and it keeps me closer to first.

I see too many guys in C making the call at first from position C. They incorrectly stay put and don't move closer to first, or move to get the best angle possible. Ball hit to F5, the umpire in C has a horrible angle on the throw unless he moves. Same with ball hit to F6, or if F6 is charging a short hop.

Position C can be a good position, but as with other positions, if not worked on and used properly it can cause lots of problems.

And of course that's just my take on it.

Thansk
David

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by David B

I find I have the best angle on a steal at 3rd from B and it keeps me closer to first.

I see too many guys in C making the call at first from position C. They incorrectly stay put and don't move closer to first, or move to get the best angle possible. Ball hit to F5, the umpire in C has a horrible angle on the throw unless he moves. Same with ball hit to F6, or if F6 is charging a short hop.

Position C can be a good position, but as with other positions, if not worked on and used properly it can cause lots of problems.

I don't see how you can have a better angle of a steal of 3rd from around B, than from busting in and toward the line from C. Yes, if you just stand there and don't move from C, you aren't going to be in proper position. When I say I prefer C, it is as starting position only. If you don't hustle from any starting position you won't be in the right place for your calls.

If you are in B with a runner stealing third, you are a long way from the tag play at third, and why do you feel the need to be closer to first base? The only play is the steal of third. If R2 is running on the pitch, you don't go with him do you? You wait to see the play develop. If the batter takes the pitch or swings and misses, you move in and toward the line on an angle and let F2's throw turn you into the play. If the batter hits the ball, then you don't go with the runner, but react to the batted ball. I guess I just don't see why you want to hang around B if a solo runner is stealing 3rd.

You need to be able to read and react to each situation as it occurs. A sharply hit ball will require different movement than a slow roller to the same fielder does. The trick is staying out of the fielder's throwing lanes and his way in general, while getting good angles and distance for your calls.

Like you said, if you don't hustle and work hard at proper positioning, C can be a problem. Like in your example of making the call at first from C. You're right, that is incorrect and lazy positioning. But if you've spent your whole career using both B and C, know how to hustle, get good angles, and have got it down pat, it works just fine.

[David B]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

Like you said, if you don't hustle and work hard at proper positioning, C can be a problem. Like in your example of making the call at first from C. You're right, that is incorrect and lazy positioning. But if you've spent your whole career using both B and C, know how to hustle, get good angles, and have got it down pat, it works just fine.

And that's the main problem that I've seen with guys in C. Most are lazy and end up out of position more than not. There are very few plays at third, (5% I believe was the latest that I've seen) and many more plays at first. I like for my umpires to be closer to the play at first and its almost impossible to be out of position in B.

As far as the steal at third, you are just as close to the call from B as you are C. Like I said, its personal preference, but from B you see the whole play develop, from C you don't see the whole play, its impossible with your back to the runner.

I think you said it best though, the good umpire will do fine from either spot. The problem is with the many not so good umpires. (g)

thanks
David

[SanDiegoSteve]

David,

How do you figure to be "just as close" from B on a steal of third? From C, I can tell when the runner is going. I peek over my right shoulder, as I was taught. I'm only going to get 3 or 4 steps at best, on an angle in and toward the line. But I end up about 20 feet from 3rd. From B, you are still only going to get a few steps, and be 50+ feet from the play. That isn't just as close.

I have never heard of the mechanic for 2nd base only in B. I have never seen anyone position themselves in B with 2nd base only.

There were a few umpires back around 1990 in my association who tried to get everybody to use B with runners at 1st and 2nd, and that went over like a lead balloon. That idea was quickly scrapped, and I haven't heard of it since.

[David B]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

David,

How do you figure to be "just as close" from B on a steal of third? From C, I can tell when the runner is going. I peek over my right shoulder, as I was taught. I'm only going to get 3 or 4 steps at best, on an angle in and toward the line. But I end up about 20 feet from 3rd. From B, you are still only going to get a few steps, and be 50+ feet from the play. That isn't just as close.

I have never heard of the mechanic for 2nd base only in B. I have never seen anyone position themselves in B with 2nd base only.

There were a few umpires back around 1990 in my association who tried to get everybody to use B with runners at 1st and 2nd, and that went over like a lead balloon. That idea was quickly scrapped, and I haven't heard of it since.

I dont usually waste my time with such comments, but just thought this was strange.

You are in C, (where you can look over your right shoulder? and see the runner going), yet you can take three steps from there and be 20 ft. from third base??

Not possible!

That again states my point - there are so many umpires who think that I'm in C so I'm close to third!

You are further from third unless you are in Smitty land, in C position but to the right of the F6.

I'm done with this rediculous drivel.

Thanks
David

[ctblu40]

I just thought I'd add my 2 cents-

Personally, I think the NFHS Manual is terrible... there are many inconsistancies (what defines a 'Trouble Ball'), and some of the responsibilities are questionable at best (UIC taking calls at third with no runners on).
Lastly, the diagrams in the NFHS Manuel look like they were drawn in the dirt with a stick, then photoed and printed in the book.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by David B

I dont usually waste my time with such comments, but just thought this was strange.

You are in C, (where you can look over your right shoulder? and see the runner going), yet you can take three steps from there and be 20 ft. from third base??

Not possible!

That again states my point - there are so many umpires who think that I'm in C so I'm close to third!

You are further from third unless you are in Smitty land, in C position but to the right of the F6.

I'm done with this rediculous drivel.

Thanks
David

First off buddy, it's ridiculous, not rediculous.

Second, it's not drivel. If you are in B with a runner at 2nd base only, you are in the wrong position. I don't care how long you've been doing it.

Third, don't talk to me like that. To borrow a line from Sal, this ain't my first rodeo either. Don't go around insulting people, it's not nice.

Fourth, My B and C are both lined up with the edges of the mound, just as I was taught right out of a pro school manual. I don't stay there to make my calls. I do this uncommon thing called hustling!!! So, no, I'm not out there in "Smitty Land," which if you are in B with 2nd only, I would consider you in.

Fifth, from C, I hustle at an angle in and toward the foul line as I've already stated. How do you figure I'm not closer to third? To say otherwise is incorrect. I may be off quite a bit with the 20 feet, okay? I'm terrible at estimating distance. That's why I can't putt worth a damn. Maybe I'm 30 feet from the play, I'm still much closer, with a superior look (angle and distance) at the play than anything you can come up with starting in B. I also probably take more than 3 or 4 steps (I did say that, not "3"), perhaps 5 or 6, I haven't really counted (Im too busy hustling), so that was probably not an accurate assessment on my part.

Sixth, I was taught (by several pro school grads from both Harry's and Joe Brinkman's) to glance over my right shoulder to see if the runner is going. If he starts, by the time the catcher catches the pitch, I can glance over my shoulder and see the runner. Usually I can hear the runner's footsteps behind me. I can also hear fielders say, "he's going!" So there are plenty of ways to know the runner is stealing 3rd without resorting to starting on the 1st base side of the diamond.

Seventh, please tell me in which umpire's manual you can find where they teach the mechanic to work in B with a runner at 2nd base only. I say it doesn't exist. Prove me wrong.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

I just thought I'd add my 2 cents-

Personally, I think the NFHS Manual is terrible... there are many inconsistancies (what defines a 'Trouble Ball'), and some of the responsibilities are questionable at best (UIC taking calls at third with no runners on).
Lastly, the diagrams in the NFHS Manuel look like they were drawn in the dirt with a stick, then photoed and printed in the book.

....and this adds to this thread how?


FED-haters aren't exactly an endangered species around here.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

If you are in B with a runner at 2nd base only, you are in the wrong position.

Personally, I make this call from the stands. I get to rest, chat with MILFs, and finish my hot dog.

My evals stink, but hey, playoffs are a big ole time-eater anyway

[David B]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

First off buddy, it's ridiculous, not rediculous.

Second, it's not drivel. If you are in B with a runner at 2nd base only, you are in the wrong position. I don't care how long you've been doing it.

Third, don't talk to me like that. To borrow a line from Sal, this ain't my first rodeo either. Don't go around insulting people, it's not nice.

Fourth, My B and C are both lined up with the edges of the mound, just as I was taught right out of a pro school manual. I don't stay there to make my calls. I do this uncommon thing called hustling!!! So, no, I'm not out there in "Smitty Land," which if you are in B with 2nd only, I would consider you in.

Fifth, from C, I hustle at an angle in and toward the foul line as I've already stated. How do you figure I'm not closer to third? To say otherwise is incorrect. I may be off quite a bit with the 20 feet, okay? I'm terrible at estimating distance. That's why I can't putt worth a damn. Maybe I'm 30 feet from the play, I'm still much closer, with a superior look (angle and distance) at the play than anything you can come up with starting in B. I also probably take more than 3 or 4 steps (I did say that, not "3"), perhaps 5 or 6, I haven't really counted (Im too busy hustling), so that was probably not an accurate assessment on my part.

Sixth, I was taught (by several pro school grads from both Harry's and Joe Brinkman's) to glance over my right shoulder to see if the runner is going. If he starts, by the time the catcher catches the pitch, I can glance over my shoulder and see the runner. Usually I can hear the runner's footsteps behind me. I can also hear fielders say, "he's going!" So there are plenty of ways to know the runner is stealing 3rd without resorting to starting on the 1st base side of the diamond.

Seventh, please tell me in which umpire's manual you can find where they teach the mechanic to work in B with a runner at 2nd base only. I say it doesn't exist. Prove me wrong.

Its always interesting and entertaining to read how umpires throw in things like I was taught by ...... who happened to graduate from a pro school etc., )

When I went to school many moons ago they taught us what was accepted at the time but the bottom line was do what your association does.

I've been teaching to stay in B since 1990 and our group still does. Might be the only one in the country, but it works great and I don;t have to worry about angles etc.,

From B all its takes is a few quick steps and you have the perfect angle for any call at third.

I've read it from Carl that I believe he's advocating staying in B period, and I believe he included such in his Mechanics for the 20th century etc.,

I might be wrong, but I know what works and that's what matters the most. Now when I call with my college guys, they like me to change, but since I get the calls right they leave me alone.

Thanks
David

[David B]

Originally Posted by LMan

Personally, I make this call from the stands. I get to rest, chat with MILFs, and finish my hot dog.

My evals stink, but hey, playoffs are a big ole time-eater anyway

Now that's funny!

Thanks
David