Positions B and C

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally Posted by DG

I am glad I don't work in IL or NH were umpires are forced to work in positions not endorsed by CCA, PBUC, or Fed for that matter. Sounds like they want to sacrifice the call for consistency of positioning.

There are a few of us that worki in the Land of Lincoln and I can't find any material that shows that we advocate unorthodox positioning. Of course, each umpire develops unique mechanics to suit his or her limitations - not to bolster their strengths. I know guys who go down to the knee for out calls on steals and routine plays at first. I laugh at them, but know them!

Illinois may have some odd personalities (yes, my hand is up) and you may see some NCAA mechanics on a HS field occasionally, but by and large the mechanics are universally accepted. That seems like a broad brush you are painting with - take heed to stay in the lines.

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I have had the exact same conversation with both Jim Evans and Dave Yeast and they say just about exactly the same thing. Their thoughts, in my words are:

"We have developed umpire mechanics over many, many years. We have reviewed thousands of games and thousands of umpires.

"We have developed, modified and reviewed umpire mechanics for decades.

"We know what we are doing.

"We simply wish that umpires would use the mechanics that we request and not make up their own. The starting positions for BUs have been developed to help with the compromises necessary to cover the game.

"We wonder why umpires think they know more than we do and use their own mechanics and positions when we have tested these things and know what works best for all?"

Take what I say for what it is:

An umpire that claims he needs to start in "B" when official mechanics literature says to start in "C" to "get a better angle at the most likely play," simply isn't much of an umpire.

I can get to the exact position that that umpire claims he needs to start in "B" to get to (man is that a bad gammar) starting in the correct position of "C".

It is much like the umpire that says a base umpire working inside can't call the checked/unchecked swing. This is an umpire that either doesn't have enough guts to make a tough call or he doesn't understand the criteria of a checked/unchecked swing.

Same goes for starting from out of position.

It is lame.

Of course this is just my opinion.

Well, here's my opinion. When Nick Bremigan, Jim McKean, and Gerry Crawford created the current 3-man system, people like the ones you've guoted said: "Hell's wrong with them? We've been doing it this way for decades. We know what's best. They should just do what we've proved." The innovation: With runners on first and third, bring U3 into the infield so each half of a double play is called by a different umpire.

As late as the mid 80s, on ESPN I saw three-man crews in Florida positioning themselves this way: R1, R3: U3 in D, U1 in B. Now, anyone who would suggest that would be laughed at, just as the Umpire Schools laughed in 1973.

In 1988, I first suggested in Referee that the umpire belonged in B with R3, R3/R2, or R3/R2/R1. I've been practicing it every since. The outcome: I miss fewer plays, and coaches say: Hey, how'd you get so close to that play at first? I'm glad to see that in some states, this eminently sane positioning is catching on. I always knew it would. All that's required is for one or two powerful umpires in an association to try it out.

In the Childress library, there is a long article (Part II of Mechanics, 2000) that explains the geometry and dynamics involved.

Let me close with this: When I was at the 3-day Evans camp in Ft. Worth, I was told the Gerry Davis stance was a joke. Everybody knows there are but two positions: heel/toe and heel/toe/heel/toe.

You quoted someone as saying: "We wonder why umpires think they know more than we do and use their own mechanics and positions when we have tested these things and know what works best for all?" For "all"?

That's an amazing display of a closed mind.

Oh, those are the same guys who refuse to use my A, B, C designations and perfer: With a runner on first, move into the infield about 15-20 feet behind the rubber, with your right foot on a line drawn from the plate...."

Remember, the experts once thought the earth was flat. Edit comment: I have no idea what "throught" (my original word here) means. But Juulie Downs, one of my basketball writers, wrote about a "kerfuffle." In .12 seconds, Google found 1,050,000 mentions of that word on the world wide web. I was an ignorant of it as I was "throught."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Well, here's my opinion. When Nick Bremigan, Jim McKean, and Gerry Crawford created the current 3-man system, people like the ones you've guoted said: "Hell's wrong with them? We've been doing it this way for decades. We know what's best. They should just do what we've proved." The innovation: With runners on first and third, bring U3 into the infield so each half of a double play is called by a different umpire.

As late as the mid 80s, on ESPN I saw three-man crews in Florida positioning themselves this way: R1, R3: U3 in D, U1 in B. Now, anyone who would suggest that would be laughed at, just as the Umpire Schools laughed in 1973.

In 1988, I first suggested in Referee that the umpire belonged in B with R3, R3/R2, or R3/R2/R1. I've been practicing it every since. The outcome: I miss fewer plays, and coaches say: Hey, how'd you get so close to that play at first? I'm glad to see that in some states, this eminently sane positioning is catching on. I always knew it would. All that's required is for one or two powerful umpires in an association to try it out.

In the Childress library, there is a long article (Part II of Mechanics, 2000) that explains the geometry and dynamics involved.

Let me close with this: When I was at the 3-day Evans camp in Ft. Worth, I was told the Gerry Davis stance was a joke. Everybody knows there are but two positions: heel/toe and heel/toe/heel/toe.

You quoted someone as saying: "We wonder why umpires think they know more than we do and use their own mechanics and positions when we have tested these things and know what works best for all?" For "all"?

That's an amazing display of a closed mind.

Oh, those are the same guys who refuse to use my A, B, C designations and perfer: With a runner on first, move into the infield about 15-20 feet behind the rubber, with your right foot on a line drawn from the plate...."

Remember, the experts once throught the earth was flat.

I just found out for the first time this past weekend that the pro schools don't use A, B, C. I guess if they don't invent it, they don't use it.

[JRutledge]

Baseball is one of the easiest sport to navigate from an officiating standpoint and we have people that claim one way is so terrible than the other. My God, we are talking about standing in a certain place for a short period of time. How hard can it be? If you do not like where you stand, stand somewhere else. All I need to know as your partner is what you are going to cover and when. The NF mechanics are the very basic so that those that did not go to pro school and debate all the possibilities can happen on a baseball field. In Illinois we use mostly NF mechanics with some modifications. It is not that hard to adjust to or deal with. Half the time I do not know if I am using a "NF" mechanic or an "NCAA" mechanic. I stand where I am told and I hustle to where I need to be. After all where you start has little or nothing to do with where you will end up.

The responses on this topic just goes to show that baseball umpires have too much time on their hands and worry about things that really are not that serious to worry about.

Peace

[SAump]

Yeah, I lost some good money at one of them CLINIQUE places. The clinicians kept insisting that I work the PRO-slot. I kept telling them I hated calling the outside pitch from the PRO-slot. I felt vulnerable to COACHES ridicule. They kept telling me I needed to lower my big fat *** and balance it with my big fat belly by leaning forward to get a better ANGLE. I kept telling them that I couldn't physically do that. It was worse than the scissors. They laughed and my kness are shot from trying. I love the vibrating tickle I feel when I contract and extend both knees now. Never felt it before the SLOT.

I took a shot in the cup and many to the left leg while in the slot. Thank GOD the 70-mph pitches were thrown by 15 year olds who were trying to imitate REAL pitchers. I had a partner who took an 80-mph shot to the cup too. He went down to the ground immediately. I don't think a steel cup would have helped him then. He did not appreciate the COACH who walked up and asked him if he was okay, either. I decided right then and there that I would never stand in the SLOT like a TOUGH GUY. I moved my fat *** and big belly behind the catcher's left shoulder. I stood a little higher and felt my knees praised GOD afterwards. From then on, there was never any thought of moving back to the slot.

I didn't know any better at the time because most PRO-umps do offer well-intentioned advice. But if anyone ever tells a NEWBIE to work the SLOT, I'll have a word or more to say about it. When I first started reading this website, I marveled how my positioning was being discussed all over the web as the GD stance. Well if that is who they want to give credit to after 100 years of baseball, I'm NOT going to disagree with the name. Things change over time and they change for a reason. With respect, who am I to argue? Papa C made the right call here too.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I've umpired baseball for 20 years and also worked basketball and football. Baseball is by far the most difficult of the three to call, despite what Jeff tries to shove down our throats every now and then.

Standing in one place for an hour is really hard work. Maybe that is why an Eric Gregg can be at the highest level. Really hard to do that.

Peace

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by SAump

I decided right then and there that I would never stand in the SLOT like a TOUGH GUY.

thats your decision. the other posters on this site like to better themselves game after game, season after season. many of us also try and move to higher levels of umpiring. its not a matter of being a "TOUGH GUY," its a matter of doing the job how it is to be done. going against tried and tested mechanics is not something i'd recommend, especially to a newcomer.

however, SAump is a troll and again im falling into his trap. i wouldnt mind if he was deleted.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Standing in one place for an hour is really hard work. Maybe that is why an Eric Gregg can be at the highest level. Really hard to do that.

Peace

How many baseball games have you ever worked that lasted an hour? What level was this, T-Ball? Why make such a remark? - mick

I just got done working 3 games on Saturday, one-man mechanics, from 9 AM to after 5PM. I'm sunburned like a freakin' lobster, and could barely walk from my back/hip Saturday night. Now that's work.

Standing in one place? If that is how you umpire, I feel real sorry for the teams that get you. I hustle my butt off when I do baseball, or any other sport. I used to do 3 and 4 football games on a Saturday, working the flanks on Pop Warner games where all you do is sprint back and forth down the field on 90 yard touchdown plays all the live-long doo dah day.

I used to have the privledge of working one-man basketball from top-of-the-key to top-of-the-key. I did 3 games back-to-back-to-back twice a week for the top A-League in the SDSU Inter-Fraternity Rec League, where all the slam-dunkin' brothers played. That was also quite a workout.

Even after all that, I still say baseball is much harder. It's much harder to call 250 to 300 pitches a game than call some fouls or throw a penalty flag once in a while. Sheesh.

BTW, I do know Mr. Gregg. I've played some softball with the man. He is a great guy, and was a damn good umpire. Why you want to disparage him is beyond me.

War

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Standing in one place for an hour is really hard work. Maybe that is why an Eric Gregg can be at the highest level. Really hard to do that.

Peace

Come on, Jeff. I know you're better than standing in one spot while you're working a baseball game aren't you?


Tim.

[SAump]

"SAump is another troll from Officials Unlimited, Brian, good catch there."

Honestlty, I have never had sex with any women from OU, or any MILF from eteamz. This is the ONE baseball site I choose because I think it is the best (maybe FED is close, , maybe NOT).

My premise is entirely over safety concerns. Take the steroids and work the slot. Buy lots of ICE too for those bruises. I know you want to move up. You can have my ticket too. There is no overnight magic pill. Hustle, knowledge and determination only get you so FAR before reality brings you back to earth. The PRO, ML and NCAA boyz don't want you there. There aren't enuf SPOTS and those that are available don't PAY like your DAY job. Sorry to BUST your bubble. Please get your college certificate and find a good slot in the job market.

Moderator, I think something may have spun out of control here. I leave you the last DANCE. I will now retire from this thread.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by SAump

Moderator, I think something may have spun out of control here. I leave you the last DANCE. I will now retire from this thread.

For once, SAump and I agree. Allowing this to continue is just ridiculous. I don't know how many posts you'll have to delete that have been made by this guy under multiple alias' or ban him by user name until the problem gets solved. He destroyed his own forum and now he's bent on destroying all others out of rage and petty jealousy. I suppose I could stoop to his level and spew forth venom about his family, his job, post bull about his wife leaving him, make a mockery out of his fathers death, but that's not my style. It's time to send him back to own forum where he can post whatever he wants as whoever he wants whenever he wants.


Tim.

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by SAump

"SAump is another troll from Officials Unlimited, Brian, good catch there."

Honestlty, I have never had sex with any women from OU, or any MILF from eteamz. This is the ONE baseball site I choose because I think it is the best (maybe FED is close, , maybe NOT).

My premise is entirely over safety concerns. Take the steroids and work the slot. Buy lots of ICE too for those bruises. I know you want to move up. You can have my ticket too. There is no overnight magic pill. Hustle, knowledge and determination only get you so FAR before reality brings you back to earth. The PRO, ML and NCAA boyz don't want you there. There aren't enuf SPOTS and those that are available don't PAY like your DAY job. Sorry to BUST your bubble. Please get your college certificate and find a good slot in the job market.

Moderator, I think something may have spun out of control here. I leave you the last DANCE. I will now retire from this thread.

I must be out of step. In my clinics, articles, books, I teach there are TWO positions from which to view a pitch: (a) the box; (b) the slot. (Professional umpires stole the name "box" for one of their slot stances. Ignore that revisionism.)

The box is that rectangle directly behind the catcher. The American League umpires used the box from the start of their League in 1903 until the 1970s. A box umpire looks directly over the catcher's head and views the plate head on.

Every other stance is a slot, where the umpire looks between the batter and the plate.

There are simply variations of the slot stance: knee (Doug Harvey's creation), scissors (Ed Vargo's sadistic legacy), heel-toe (PBUC stance), heel/toe/heel/toe (Jim Evan's name for his stance), balanced (John McSherry's stance, which the wannabes call the box), and the Gerry Davis.

Gerry Davis is identical to John McSherry's balanced slot stance with one addition: Gerry (and his disciplies, of whom I am one) uses the hands-on-knees set position.

There is one safe place for an umpire behind the plate: In the box (behind the catcher) with the outside protector.

Wherever else you stand, you're going to get plunked.

Now, if I've missed something, and there is a spot where the umpire can use Gerry Davis without being in the slot, let know.

Otherwise, buy plenty of Sportscreme. And get those soccer shin guards for forearm protection. About half of the GD umpires in my association now wear them. They smile a lot more.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

I must be out of step. In my clinics, articles, books, I teach there are TWO positions from which to view a pitch: (a) the box; (b) the slot. (Professional umpires stole the name "box" for one of their slot stances. Ignore that revisionism.)

The box is that rectangle directly behind the catcher. The American League umpires used the box from the start of their League in 1903 until the 1970s. A box umpire looks directly over the catcher's head and views the plate head on.

Every other stance is a slot, where the umpire looks between the batter and the plate.

There are simply variations of the slot stance: knee (Doug Harvey's creation), scissors (Ed Vargo's sadistic legacy), heel-toe (PBUC stance), heel/toe/heel/toe (Jim Evan's name for his stance), balanced (John McSherry's stance, which the wannabes call the box), and the Gerry Davis.

Gerry Davis is identical to John McSherry's balanced slot stance with one addition: Gerry (and his disciplies, of whom I am one) uses the hands-on-knees set position.

There is one safe place for an umpire behind the plate: In the box (behind the catcher) with the outside protector.

Wherever else you stand, you're going to get plunked.

Now, if I've missed something, and there is a spot where the umpire can use Gerry Davis without being in the slot, let know.

Otherwise, buy plenty of Sportscreme. And get those soccer shin guards for forearm protection. About half of the GD umpires in my association now wear them. They smile a lot more.

I had forgotten about the shin guards for the arms, but after getting "plunked" Saturday in the forearm that would be a good investment, actually, my son has some that he uses for soccer that I could borrow.

And worn under my jacket, if would also be pretty much unnoticed. Thanks for the reminder.

Thanks
David

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Let me close with this: When I was at the 3-day Evans camp in Ft. Worth, I was told the Gerry Davis stance was a joke. Everybody knows there are but two positions: heel/toe and heel/toe/heel/toe.

I recently returned from a 3-day camp. A MLB umpire instructor there all but refused to let me work the GD stance in cage drills, said, "there's no way in hell you can see the outside corner of the plate from there."

*shrug* Camps are great...you can take what helps you, and discard the rest

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Some states put BU in C only when a steal of third is possible (i.e., R1,R2 or R2 only). Otherwise they put BU in B.

Then where would these states have the BU with only R3?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN