An Unbelievable Throw?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by NIump50
I resighted my 308 last fall for 200 yards. After I had it zeroed in I took some shots off the bench at 50, 100 and 150 yds because you never know where Bambi is going to show up. Anyway, I wanted to know how high I was at each yardage so I would know how to adjust my shot. Interestingly enough, at 50 yds I was dead on to .5 high. I expected to be a 2-3 inches high.
At 100 yds I was 2.5 inches high, at 150 yds between 1.5 and 1.75 high and at 200 dead on. Which means between 50 yds and 100 yds the bullet defied gravity and rose 2 inches.
My boys and I often play paintball on the farm and many times I see the little round spherical ball rise up and over my intended target right before I get blasted with one that didn't rise.

Why did these two objects rise? I don't know, I'm just a dumb farm boy and I haven't taken the time to learn all this aerodynamic stuff, but if the pitcher the hitter and the catcher all say the ball rose, I'm not arguing with them.
In every industry, it's the white shirts in the office working on theory and the men in the field working in reality, I tend to side with reality.

Deep Deep thought of the day...
The baseball is like a microcosm of the earth.
Science says the earth is billions of years old, all us umpires evolved from rats and a baseball can't rise.
Reality is the earth is 8,000 years old, thankfully we did not evolve from rats, at least most of us, and a baseball can rise. Of all the things science is wrong about rising fastballs seems to be the least of their transgressions.

It would take someone who thinks the earth is 8000 years old to think that a fastball can rise as it crosses the plate and not understand the concept of sighting-in a rifle.

My lord, this is just too fargin phunni for words, so I'll stop now. No, I have to add, at least we have seen what it takes to agree with SA.

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 7th, 2006 at 09:59 PM]

[kylejt]

Some paintball guns run a curved barrel, called a flatline. It puts tremendous backspin on the ball, and couple that with deflection of the shape of the balls caused by the G's and you get lift.

I've seen Tippman guns shoot risers. If a human being could throws balls that fast with deformed sphere, I'm sure they'd rise too. No doubt about it.

[SAump]

Check out: http://www.physics.ubc.ca/%7Ewaltham/air/FwB.pdf
Let me sumarize for YOU. The title speaks for itself, "Flight without Bernoulli." Then to the point, "Birds and aircraft fly because they are constantly pushing AIR downwards."

Now which way was that 100 mph baseball headed and which way was the air pushing back? Didn't Katrina's and Rita's winds devestate the lower GULF coast this past summer. There is a big difference between 70 mph and 100 mph WINDS. Someone needs to consider AIR viscosity, pressure, temperature and density in them, there winds too.

All I have read about gravity and spin could take place in DENVER during the winter. How many people can throw a curveball (millions) compared to 100 mph fastball (15)? Oh you can make it curve, but YOU cannot make it rise. Why must you insist so damn hard that the few who CAN are really no different than YOU? They can make it RISE because they can throw it a lot harder than YOU.

For entertainment, this article about the flight charcteristics of a bumble bee comes to mind.
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/...1/mathtrek.asp

[SAump]

I will not delete this thread.

Just thought I would add my Angle of Attack is 5 degrees.

http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/airflylvl3.htm

Check out Figures 9 AoA vs Lift Coeffivient and 14. AoA vs Speed

Very similar to a 100 mph BASEBALL tossed from a pitchers mound. All I need to FLY!

[Edited by SAump on Mar 8th, 2006 at 02:42 AM]

[SAump]

I have already given a reason that confirms/predicts the ballistic results described by Nlump50. Too bad it was deleted. But remember the gardern hose analogy. Attach a small handle and restrict the pressure comming out at the end of the hose. Drop the hose on the ground. The garden hose should dance around and defy the laws of gravity. Anyone care to try to hang on to a 3 inch firehose under significant water pressure? I think you would need help holding the nozzle still. The responsible force in both examples is not Bernoulli, it is LIFT.

[NIump50]

Originally posted by GarthB

It would take someone who thinks the earth is 8000 years old to think that a fastball can rise as it crosses the plate and not understand the concept of sighting-in a rifle.

My lord, this is just too fargin phunni for words, so I'll stop now. No, I have to add, at least we have seen what it takes to agree with SA.

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 7th, 2006 at 09:59 PM]

[NIump50]

Originally posted by GarthB

It would take someone who thinks the earth is 8000 years old to think that a fastball can rise as it crosses the plate and not understand the concept of sighting-in a rifle.

My lord, this is just too fargin phunni for words, so I'll stop now. No, I have to add, at least we have seen what it takes to agree with SA.

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 7th, 2006 at 09:59 PM]

And I suppose your thoughts have more credibility since your ancestral line includes fish and monkeys?

Those who do not have brains that evolved from the amoeba understood the two points I was trying to make.

1. Spinning objects can rise depite gravity.
Therefore a mere gravitational argument against a rising fastball is not sufficient.

2. I admitted that I have not taken the time to understand aerodynamics of why the bullet rises.

Like I said before, if the pitcher said it rose, the catcher said it rose and the batter said it rose I tend to believe it rose despite what all the white coats have to say about it. Ironically enough they all believe they evolved from the lemming.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by NIump50
Those who do not have brains that evolved from the amoeba understood the two points I was trying to make.

Wait a minute... are you trying to imply that those of certain religious persuasions have brains that evolved from different sources than those with different persuasions?

1. Spinning objects can rise depite gravity.
Therefore a mere gravitational argument against a rising fastball is not sufficient.

Of course. That's why the bulk of the discussion revolves around SPIN (and specifically what effect spin has on a ball). Did you even read the links? But gravity can be calculated - and is the basis of the argument in that you know exactly how much acceleration downward must be counteracted by whatever other forces are acting on the ball.

2. I admitted that I have not taken the time to understand aerodynamics of why the bullet rises.

Yes, this is obvious. Among other things.

[NIump50]

Originally posted by mcrowder

Wait a minute... are you trying to imply that those of certain religious persuasions have brains that evolved from different sources than those with different persuasions?




It's called sarcasm, but I think both sides of the brain must be functioning to catch it.

Of course. That's why the bulk of the discussion revolves around SPIN (and specifically what effect spin has on a ball). Did you even read the links? But gravity can be calculated - and is the basis of the argument in that you know exactly how much acceleration downward must be counteracted by whatever other forces are acting on the ball.

Yes, this is obvious. Among other things. [/B]

Perhaps you can relate to this:
Newtons theory of energy didn't include mass converting to energy because he never saw mass moving any where close to the speed of light, however when Einstien was able to see mass moving at or close to the speed of light he added to his formula to prove that mass can convert to energy.
Was Newton wrong? To be kind we can say he didn't have all the facts or consider all the variables.
So to be kind I won't say you're wrong, perhaps you're just not considering all the facts and variables.

PS
It's not so bad being compared to Newton is it?

[mcrowder]

Good grief. If a physics degree from a major university is not enough to allow me to understand the simple mechanics of a spinning ball moving over a short distance, I wasted a WHOLE lot of money.

I assure you that we have all of the relevant information for such a simple problem.

And you, sir, are now relegated to the sad stack of trolls that should be ignored going forward. Heck... you've just made one poster only the 2nd most obtuse troll around. SA should thank you.

[jxt127]

This is about as funny as watching my oldest son argue with his mother about how he doesnt make any mess in the house. The clothes on the bathroom floor are all his yet it's not his mess.

[NIump50]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Good grief. If a physics degree from a major university is not enough to allow me to understand the simple mechanics of a spinning ball moving over a short distance, I wasted a WHOLE lot of money.

You said it not me

I assure you that we have all of the relevant information for such a simple problem.

Said the physics community 40 years ago when explaining the curveball was an optical illusion.

But of course now we are in the enlightened era where we have no more to learn.

And you, sir, are now relegated to the sad stack of trolls that should be ignored going forward. Heck... you've just made one poster only the 2nd most obtuse troll around. SA should thank you.

I'm wondering why this forum even exists. It seems it should just be "Ask mcrowder" since you know it all anyway.
And had I known you could relegate me to a sad troll I promise I wouldn't have crossed you.
Please have mercy O Great One

[Tim C]

I thought PWL and SAUmp were the bestest!

I finally have a six man crew.

DudeinBlue
Dumbdrum
SAUmp
PWL
Nlump50
btdt

I can now rest in piece.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Tim C
I thought PWL and SAUmp were the bestest!

I finally have a six man crew.

DudeinBlue
Dumbdrum
SAUmp
PWL
Nlump50
btdt

I can now rest in piece.

Goodness, all six of them would want to be URF.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Tim C
I thought PWL and SAUmp were the bestest!

I finally have a six man crew.

DudeinBlue
Dumbdrum
SAUmp
PWL
Nlump50
btdt

I can now rest in piece.

What a coincidence. I've got a banjo sextet with the same performers.