An Unbelievable Throw?

SAump · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 12:19pm

I now present a case study in human sexuality. The population of the US is roughly 300 million people.
Most of these people will accept that a young girl can throw a softball riser underhand. Some have trouble explaining how a man can throw an ^OVERHAND RISING 100 mph FASTBALL^ and find the matter unbelievable.

Let's consider half the population to be male. Out of these 150 million men, let's take 1000 of the best of the best baseball players in the country. How many of these ballplayers can actually throw 100 mph baseball consistently throughout a baseball game? If we take an ultra-conservative number of 150 MEN, then the odds of seeing someone throw a rising fastball is ONE in a MILLION. However if we want to represent reality, then we would have to only consider about 15 AMERICANS who can actually throw 100 mph fastball consistently. The odds of seeing someone throw a rising fastball is then ONE in TEN-MILLION.

Now I can understand why some would say that a rising fastball cannot be thrown overhand with odds like that. It's certainly a one in ten-million search. It's like saying that you'll never win the state lottery. That may be TRUE, but someone else will WIN the lottery. He just has to have a WINNING TICKET specifically wrapped up in a STRONG RIGHT or LEFT ARM. I want to know why you refuse to beleive former lottery winners and very special BASEBALL HALL of FAMERS could not do it. Their strikeout records speak for them. Why would you argue against the possibility?

[Edited by SAump on Mar 4th, 2006 at 08:27 PM]

ajjl22 · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 12:55pm

One word: Physics

kylejt · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 01:43pm

Why would you still argue against the possibility?

We had a cosultant working for us last year, and he is reknown for his research in baseball physics. I believe he said in order for a normally seamed baseball to rise from that distance it has to be thrown over 150mph.

Let me know when THAT guy comes up to pitch.

kylejt · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 05:06pm

"The odds of seeing someone throw a rising fastball is then ONE in TEN-MILLION."

I think I see your problem. "Seeing" a rising fastball, and it actually happening are two different things. I've "seen"(I grew up in the '70's) lots of stuff. Don't mean they actually exsisted.

I like your logic however. Can you extrapolate the same thinking for human levetation? Now THAT would be cool!

briancurtin · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 05:20pm

not this **** again

BigUmp56 · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 05:33pm

Brian:

Can't you take this to one of your professors in the physics department and see what they have to say? I'd like to put an end to this as well.

Tim.

briancurtin · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 05:44pm

thats actually not a bad idea. im on spring break right now but i could probably stop in and talk for a while with one of my old teachers when i get back.

BretMan · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 05:55pm

"Most of these people will accept that a young girl can throw a softball riser underhand."

And 100% of those people would be wrong.

That myth has been debunked with the use of video analysis. The study was done using a college D-1 pitcher who is generally regarded as having one of the best "risers" in the game, Sarah Pauley. Throughout her career she has been among the college leaders in strikeouts, with the "riser" her bread-and-butter pitch.

To a man- or woman- her teammates, coaches and the opposing players have all credited her pitch with "rising" through the strike zone. But when analyzed with video, where the trajectory of her "riser" could be easily tracked, this was found to not be the case.

The fact is, this "rise ball" as thrown by an accomplished D-1 college pitcher regarded as having one of the best "risers" in the game, was actually coming through the zone about flat with a couple of degrees of downward angle.

The conclusion of the study was that the "rise ball" does not rise. That is, it does not follow a gravity-defying upside-down parabolic path, like going up a ski jump.

Rather, the ball was simply not dropping at a rate the hitter's would normally see and was thus creating the illusion to be "rising".

If your premise is that "even a little girl can do it, so why not a big, strong man" your premise would be wrong. In reality, even a big, strong highly-trained and accomplished girl can't do it!

[Edited by BretMan on Mar 4th, 2006 at 05:59 PM]

kylejt · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 06:28pm

Let me put this to rest, with the help of a friend.

http://www.sie.arizona.edu/sysengr/

Click on his baseball link, and find the Power Point file that references the rising fastball myth.

Lots of science to make your head spin.

briancurtin · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 07:32pm

"deja vu all over again"

greymule · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 10:49pm

A friend of mine is a professor of aeronautical engineering at Princeton University. I assume he would know the issues involved. I'm going to ask him and relay what he says.

SAump · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 11:33pm

Does s/he like stockcar racing? Tell 'em that I once saw a stockcar RISE 10-12 feet through the air and tumble over and over at speeds of 180 mph. There was such a strong upward lift on the bottom of all cars that race officials had to adopt SAFETY requirements MANY years ago. Wings were required to provide a downward force to keep the car from RISING off the ground. The same thing is true for powerboats traveling at speeds of 100 mph. Now I want to know if a 5 ounce baseball with SEAMS passing through the heavy warm AIR I breath at sea-level in June at speeds of 100 mph also experiences a small RISE due to a well-known force called LIFT.

cbfoulds · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 04, 2006, 11:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SAump
Does s/he like stockcar racing? Tell 'em that I once saw a stockcar RISE 10-12 feet through the air and tumble over and over at speeds of 180 mph. There was such a strong upward lift on the bottom of all cars that race officials had to adopt SAFETY requirements MANY years ago. Wings were required to provide a downward force to keep the car from RISING off the ground. The same thing is true for powerboats traveling at speeds of 100 mph. Now I want to know if a 5 ounce baseball with SEAMS passing through the heavy warm AIR I breath at sea-level in June at speeds of 100 mph also experiences a small RISE due to a well-known force called LIFT.

If you ever see a spherical race car or speedboat, let me know. 'Til then .......

kylejt · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 05, 2006, 01:02am

"Now I want to know if a 5 ounce baseball with SEAMS passing through the heavy warm AIR I breath at sea-level in June at speeds of 100 mph also experiences a small RISE due to a well-known force called LIFT. "

SAump,

Did you read the info I provided?

If you did, what part of it don't you get? I know it was a lot of big words, but he did provide some neato pictures too.

SAump · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 05, 2006, 03:03am

Most of what I read sounds like any baseball writer's comments on pitching, not very scientific. I found several ERRORS. He quickly dismissed the MLB pitchers swearing they get a rise out of the four seam fastball. That claim doesn't agree with the guy in the white coat. I would like to KNOW what MLB PITCHERS said it rises. Skeptically, I would like to know how they feel about having an optical dillusion.

http://www.sie.arizona.edu/sysengr/p...seballPath.pdf

The lab guy said, "This could be the reason that pitchers often say the four-seam fastball rises." So ONE guy in the WHITE coat is your credible witness. You rely on him for all this info. You believe his optical illusion tune. With the story goes the incredible evidence of at least 15 HALL of FAME pitchers who all established league leading strikeout records throwing a four-seam fastball.

The pitcher and catcher both say it RISES above the intended target and hitters also swear to that. The MLB pitcher has years of experience under his belt and he should have a clue where he is aiming his pitch by now. If he is surprised by the location of a sailing four-seam fastball, then it may be because it rose above the intended target. Get a clue from the guy throwing in the majors! The MLB hitter has a better idea of why he swung and missed than the story the guy in the white coat has been spreading around the country.

[Edited by SAump on Mar 5th, 2006 at 04:06 AM]