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Wed Feb 08, 2006, 10:55pm
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Can you legally and without liability of being put out, overrun first base on a base on balls? I know codes differ, and this topic has been touched on before, but here it is again. Sorry if I'm being repetative!
JJ 
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Wed Feb 08, 2006, 11:18pm
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Hmmm. Actually, I went to ask.com and asked, and was directed to the official forum - an old thread from last year - and it says there it's legal in Pro and NCAA, but you can't overrun first in FED. Even gave a Pro rule reference....
I think I'll leave this thread up for awhile just so others can see it, even though my question has been answered. JJ
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Wed Feb 08, 2006, 11:24pm
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Well,
In OBR there is no penalty for the over running . . .
In FED you cannot over run without putting yourself at risk of being put out. ------- My favorite FED play: 3 balls 2 strikes, first base unoccupied. Curve ball in the dirt. Batter may, or may not have swung. Ball rolls away from F2. Batter runs to first, F2 throws to first but batter runner beats the throw and crosses base into the outfield grass. F3 walks out and tags him. Catcher then appeals to BU: "Did he go?" So at the FED level you have: If the batter walked, "no he didn't go!" (i.e. was awarded first base without liability to be put out) he would now be out. But if the batter struck out, "Yes, he went!" you would have a runner that is safe (as he can overrun on a third strike not caught) when he actually potentially made an out. Makes my head hurt sometimes.
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Thu Feb 09, 2006, 09:38am
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Not..... gonnna......... respond................
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
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Thu Feb 09, 2006, 12:37pm
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I believe that Tee implied a verbal call in this situation. Is your high horse maybe a donkey?
Bob
__________________
Bob P. ----------------------- We are stewards of baseball. Our customers aren't schools or coaches or conferences. Our customer is the game itself.
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Thu Feb 09, 2006, 01:41pm
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Wow, that's even worse than I thought it was.
I originally someone was saying that BU should verbalize his decision on the call before being asked (awful!). I now know that he was saying PU (!) should verbalize BU's call before F2 asked PU to appeal to BU. Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense. I missed Carnac's School of Umpiring. Crap. I've been trolled. I really should delete this, but I can't.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
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Thu Feb 09, 2006, 02:54pm
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I Carl's book, he states that some crews skip the whole "wait for the PU to ask the BU" step when the both teams needs to know and it could affect the play.
He goes on to call it the advanced mechanic, when the BU doesn't wait for an appeal and makes the call in those instances. Hummmm??? Quote:
__________________
Well I am certainly wiser than this man. It is only too likely that neither of us has any knowledge to boast of; but he thinks that he knows something which he does not know, whereas I am quite conscious of my ignorance. At any rate it seems that I am wiser than he is to this small extent, that I do not think that I know what I do not know. ~Socrates
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Thu Feb 09, 2006, 03:31pm
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PWL:
In FED the note to rule 10-1-4 is what you're looking for. It's say's the UIC "sometimes" asks for aide. That leads me to believe that it not mandatory, although I can't imagine why someone would not go for help when asked. In OBR, it's a different story. The rule say's the PU "must" ask for help. Tim.
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Thu Feb 09, 2006, 03:32pm
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Quote:
And if you SAY "He didn't go, did he?" the craphouse is going to explode if your partner comes back with his honest answer of "YES HE DID!" Pregaming this subterfuge is not "fair to both teams."
__________________
"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
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Thu Feb 09, 2006, 04:02pm
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I'm going to make a leap here. Please don't disappoint me, or I won't do it again. Because your most recent post seemed more honest than usual, I'm going to assume, PWL, that your responses are not trolling this time, and you really mean what you said...
God help me. OBR has decreed that the swing/no-swing is BU's call. If you are asked, you ask your partner. PLEASE don't ever lead the witness like you proposed. It's HIS call, 100%. FED has decreed that if PU got a good look at the swing/no-swing, he CAN decide not to appeal to partner. If you got a good look, and KNOW it was no swing, don't appeal. Don't try the "He didn't go, did he?". First, it will piss off 75% of the coaches who hear you phrase it that way, and second, it opens a HUGE $hitstorm if partner disagrees with you. (Obviously, if you thought he swung, you would have called it a strike in the first place). if you DIDN'T get a good look, and you're asked to appeal - do so, again, without leading questions. Now, to this specific situation, I've seen/read the mechanic that allows PU, if he felt the swing was borderline and it is important to other baserunners or the flow of the game to know if it was a strike immediately, PU can appeal to his partner without being asked by the defense. This might be a play where PU might want to employ this mechanic. But PU would never verbalize this call, as you suggested early. PU simply calls it a strike if he swung, a ball if he thinks he didn't, and appeals to partner if appropriate as above.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
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Thu Feb 09, 2006, 04:17pm
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Hmmm,
Well now we are headed for the PU saying: "No, he didn't go!"
Still a mechanic I would never use, but it is acceptable and is taught. I thought this group of astute readers would have already understood the issue of asking, or not: timing of request: and what can be offered when. I just wanted to post a play that has odd possibilites. But again, we see horribly untrained jv umpires answering in the most incorrect way possible. If you don't say: "no he didn't go!", then you never have to worry about your pards saying something different. Of course, this is just my opinion.
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