Overrun 1st on ball 4?

[RPatrino]

Ok, here's my take.

PU never says, "no, he didn't go". PU says "ball". If asked, he asks his partner for help. If you feel you should ask before the offensive team requests, go for it, for sure on a dropped third strike situation.

PU on a check swing could say, " he went", and signal his strike. I just signal the strike.

Is that what we are talking about here?

Bob P

[Tim C]

Bob:

There are a group of umpires, championed by CArl Childress, that say a PU should say: "Ball, No! he didn't go!"

This comment, in their opinion, will head off requests to get help.

I, exactly like you, verbalize "Ball" and let stuff fall where it may.

My sincere apology to all who now have been drug into an educational treatment by possibly the most inept umpire on the internet.

[mcrowder]

Aw Tim, have you forgotten Dumbdrum already?

[BigUmp56]

Here's the problem I have with what Carl suggests.

For a long time now I've been working OBR games in several different organizations. One organization in particular follows OBR extremely close with very few modifications. One of the things that are consistent with the exact wording of OBR is the UIC *must* go for help on defensive appeal of a check swing.

What a $h1t$torm would be created if I said "No, he didn't go!" from behind the plate and then have the defense ask for an appeal. I now *must* go for help by rule and if I have a Smitty partner overturn my call, we have a mess.

I'll stick to calling "ball" if he didn't and "he went" when he did.


Tim.

[NFump]

Originally posted by RPatrino
Ok, here's my take.

PU never says, "no, he didn't go". PU says "ball". If asked, he asks his partner for help. If you feel you should ask before the offensive team requests, go for it, for sure on a dropped third strike situation.

PU on a check swing could say, " he went", and signal his strike. I just signal the strike.

Is that what we are talking about here?

Bob P

What Bob said.

[RPatrino]

So, now its "ball, no he didn't go" and soon it will be "ball, that was way high, a little outside, too".

Now, I've heard those kind of verbalizations before, and it's downright WRONG!

Bob P.

[UMP25]

Can we get back to the original topic of this thread?

I believe someone said under OBR one can overrun first on a walk and not be out if tagged. I've read conflicting reports of this, both from supposedly authoritative sources, too.

[BigUmp56]

If the BR over-runs first base on a ball four base award in OBR he does so with liability to be put out


JEA

The 3-2 pitch to the batter is a wild pitch. The batter sprints to first. ..realizing he has no chance to advance to second, he overruns first base. The alert catcher throws to the first baseman who tags the batter-runner before he can return to the base. Is this a putout...or...may the batter-runner overrun first in this situation?

RULING:

This is a put out. The batter is "awarded" first base on ball four but he is liable to be put out after reaching first base.


Tim.

[Tim C]

This is not how I remember it (now that's a surprise) . . . I will ask at the Evans clinc in PDX March 2.

As I remember 7.08j says he can overrun. But I can't remember where I parked my car right now so consider the source.

And of course I assumed that there was no intent to advance but a simple "run through" the bag or step off.

Thanks Tim.



[Edited by Tim C on Feb 9th, 2006 at 06:55 PM]

[UMP25]

And from the J/R manual:

A runner (including the batter-runner) awarded a base due to a base on balls or detached gear (live ball awards) cannot be tagged out unless such runner passes his awarded base with intent to advance. [6.08a][7.04b]

This is under the section dealing with the batter-runner out/not out.

This appears to contradict Evans' book. Tim, let us know what you find out next month at the clinic.

[Edited by UMP25 on Feb 9th, 2006 at 06:55 PM]

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by UMP25
And from the J/R manual:

This is under the section dealing with the batter-runner out/not out.

This appears to contradict Evans' book. Tim, let us know what you find out next month at the clinic.

[Edited by UMP25 on Feb 9th, 2006 at 06:55 PM]

Evans is wrong.

MLBUM:

5.13 NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(c)(EXCEPTION), 7.080), and 7.10(c).)

[UMP25]

Duh! I knew I had read that before.

That was the contradiction to which I referred earlier. I neglected to look in my copy of the MLBUM, which, as you indicate, says the B-R is not necessarily out if overrunning it. Case close it would seem.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Rich Ives

Evans is wrong.

MLBUM:

5.13 NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(c)(EXCEPTION), 7.080), and 7.10(c).)

There are two issues here. And Baseball's Knotty Problems explains. In brief (without all the history): If a batter-runner runs by first (thinking he could try for second on a wild pitch but changes his mind), he cannot be tagged out. But if he walks and stops at first, he can be tagged out if he steps off the base. It's up in the air whether he is out if he steps off the base away from the plate. Everybody knows he's out if he steps off toward second or back toward the plate.

Touching this other thing, as Henry VIII said in A Man for All Season: Tee emailed to say that there was a difference of opinion here about calling the half swing. Here's my reply:

I do it the old-fashioned way:
"Ball. No, he didn' go!" Cuts down on appeals and on overturned strike calls.
"Strike!" Point to batter: "Yes, he went." Cuts down on batters turning around and asking: "On the plate or on the swing?"

Someone said he didn't want to say, "No, he didn't go," and then get overruled because that would make him look stupid.

That doesn't make any sense. The plate umpire is "saying" the batter checked his swing when he simply calls "Ball!" For if he thought it was a strike....

Saying "No, he didn't go!" acknowledges you saw a half swing. For whatever reason, you felt the batter held up. "Check him, check him." So you check, and Old Smitty says: "Yes, he went."

Big deal. Perhaps he did go. Sometimes our view is blocked, or we blink, or flinch, or go to sleep for a moment.

If you forcefully point out you saw the pitch and, four feet from the batter, decide he didn't go, you're going to get overturned a lot less often.

Besides, you want a reason? That's the way professional clinicians teach it.

[Rich Ives]

CC wrote: It's up in the air whether he is out if he steps off the base away from the plate. in the context that he stopped on the base first.


I wouldn't have a problem with an out in this case. The whole purpose of the overrun rule (exception actually) was so the runner did not have to stop at first, which allows a greated chance of reaching safely. I think that if he does stop at first the purpose has been served and the rule (exception) expires at that point.

[greymule]

Evans is wrong.

Thanks.

I read that JEA case play a couple of weeks ago and felt quite frustrated, since I thought we had settled long ago that in OBR the BR could overrun on ball 4.

I was going to query that JEA play on this site but didn't have the stomach.