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Thu May 24, 2001, 09:26am
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Runner on second advancing to third is hit by the batted ball. The runner is behind the third baseman, who misses ball entirely. Shortstop cannot make a play on the ball.
I say that play continues. Am I right? Thanks.
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Bob Porter 
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Thu May 24, 2001, 10:20am
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If the ball has passed the fielders other than the pitcher, and noone has a legitimate shot at making a play,then the runner should be fine. But if it hits him before the fielder has a chance to play the ball, Dead Ball, Runner is out and all runners return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch, unless forced to advance by a preceding runner.
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Thu May 24, 2001, 10:50am
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Yeah. Let it continue. What a jump the runner got!!!! mick
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Fri May 25, 2001, 08:32am
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Depends. If the third baseman had a reasonable chance to make the play. By that I mean, did the ball pass him by 3 to 5 feet on either side of him or less. If it did the runner is not out. However, if the ball passed the infielders by more than five feet, i.e. not a reasonable chance to make the play, and it hits the runner behind them, then the runner is dead out. You must give the defense a REASONABLE chance to field the ball. If you haven't, your meat. G. [Edited by Gee on May 25th, 2001 at 09:45 AM]
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Fri May 25, 2001, 11:08am
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Depends Part 2
There was a similar thread on URC. The discussion went like this: Runner is out when hit fair ball except when the ball passes near a fielder (7.08f). The posters claim that in this situation: R2, R3 with infielders in, a grounder in the hole that passes equidisant between the fielder that hits R2 would result in R2 being called out. Apparently, the offensive player has an obligation to get out of the way of batted ball expect when the ball passes close enough to a fielder that a runner does not have a chance to get out of the way. Seems to make sense though I know I would have a hard time convincing an offensive coach since 7.08f does not define passed as meaning within a few feet of the fielder.
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Fri May 25, 2001, 12:08pm
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Re: Depends Part 2
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Mike, Actually 7.08(f) does not mention the word NEAR, it just says "...Passes a fielder...". That is where the problem is. It should say "After that fielder has had a reasonable chance to field the ball" JEA interprets Reasonable chance as three feet,i.e., arms length, Carl Childress interprets it as 5 feet,i.e., a step and arms length, J/R doesn't mention it although in his list of troubled rules he lists 7.08(f) twice, once as Disorganized and again as Inaccurate. There are only two times a runner can get hit by a fair batted ball and not be out. 1. If the ball is deflected by a fielder, including the pitcher, before hitting the runner. and 2. If it has passed a fiedler after he has a reasonable chance to make the play (3 to 5 ft.) and then only if there is no another fielder directly behind the first fielder and the second fielder could have made the play. On the URC thread you cited, I posted an extreme situation to drive home the point. I'll include it here. Ted Williams at bat, Bobby Doerr is at second. Defense puts on the shift. They take all fielders, with the exception of the left fielder, from the left side of the field and put them on the right side. Williams inside outs the pitch to the left side, it hits Doerr. What do you have? Doerr is dead out as he limps off the field. So the Mgr comes out and says, Hey blue, There was no fielder there, how could he interfer. Answer, Doerr interfered with the normal course of play and didn't give the defense a reasonable chance to make a play on it before it hit him, that's interference. Can't do that. I've got that ball protected all the way to the outfield wall. The rule says that a runner is out when he gets hit by a fair batted ball. It goes on to list the exceptions I cited above. If it wasn't one of those exceptions the runner is out. A lot of umpires confuse this sitch with the, interfering with a fielder while making a play sitch. Whole different ball game. And the way the rule is written in the OBR doesn't help at all either. G. [Edited by Gee on May 25th, 2001 at 12:14 PM]
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Fri May 25, 2001, 01:11pm
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Now I am confused. What I have read implies that if the infielders do not have a reasonable chance to catch the ball, for example a ball hit in the hole, and it hits the runner, then the runner is out, because the first player to have a reasonable chance at the ball is the outfielder.
It seems to contradict the Rules 5.1.f1, 5.1.f2 and 8.4.2k. In particular 8.4.2k states that "The runner is out when contacted by a fair ball before it touches an infielder, or after it passes any infielder, except the pitcher and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play". I would stand by my call of letting play continue, even though the ball passed more than 5 feet from the 3rd baseman and shortstop.
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Bob Porter
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Fri May 25, 2001, 01:31pm
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BP, I do not do FED rules, just OBR. Your quote of FED Rule 8.4.2k appears to be the same as the OBR. If you were doing an OBR game, your call would be wrong. Not knowing the FED interp, or case book examples on that, I can't comment. However, I think it is the same as the OBR. G.
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Fri May 25, 2001, 01:55pm
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G,
Thanks for the reply. Can you explain to me why I am wrong? I agree that no infielder had a reasonable chance on the ball. I am basing my argument on 8.4.2k that states no other infielder has a chance at the ball. Would it not be the same as an umpire being hit on the line after it passes the infielders, regardless of a reasonable chance? Please let me know what you think. Thanks.
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Bob Porter
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Fri May 25, 2001, 02:13pm
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Originally posted by BPorter
Thanks for the reply. Can you explain to me why I am wrong? I agree that no infielder had a reasonable chance on the ball. I am basing my argument on 8.4.2k that states no other infielder has a chance at the ball. Under FED rules, the runner is not out. FED makes no mention of the 3-5 ft. from fielder that J/R uses. FED Case Book Play 8.4.2 Sitch H R1 is advancing to second when the ball batted by B2 (a) is dropped by F4 and is deflected toward R1 or (b) passes several feet to the left of F4 who is playing in front of the baseline. In either case, the ball then touches R1. Ruling In (a) the touching is ignored because the ball touched a defensive player first. In (b), touching is ignored unless R1 purposely allows the ball to touch him, or in the opinion of the umpire, another player who was in an infielder's position when the pitch was made had a play on the ball. Therefore, in FED, if in the judgement of the umpire no other player had a chance on the ball, the touching is ignored. IMO FED is much simpler and makes way more sense than the OBR interpretation. Using the example GEE gave on the ultimate of ultimate shifts using OBR - you are granting the defense a "freebie" and an out which they did not earn. under FED rules - we play on. Pete Booth
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Peter M. Booth
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Fri May 25, 2001, 02:23pm
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OK, BP. I realize it is a tough thing to change your thinking on but the right call is OUT. Here is where your problem is. The FED rule says: "The runner is out when contacted by a fair ball before it touches an infielder, or after it PASSESany infielder, except the pitcher and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play". The runner is out "AFTER IT HAS PASSED AN INFIELDER" In your play the ball "HASN'T PASSED A FIELDER". According to Jim Evans and other acknowledged authoritative opinion. The ball must go by an infielder by less that 5 feet in order to have PASSED him. That did not happen in your play. The ball went by the infielder by more than five feet as you stated. Therefore, the defense did not have a REASONABLE CHANCE to field the ball before it hit the runner. The runner is out for INTERFERED. It will take time for this to sink in, work on it. G.
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Fri May 25, 2001, 02:32pm
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Originally posted by Gee [/i]
Here is where your problem is. The FED rule says: "The runner is out when contacted by a fair ball before it touches an infielder, or after it PASSESany infielder, except the pitcher and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play". The runner is out "AFTER IT HAS PASSED AN INFIELDER" In your play the ball "HASN'T PASSED A FIELDER". According to Jim Evans and other acknowledged authoritative opinion. The ball must go by an infielder by less that 5 feet in order to have PASSED him. That did not happen in your play. Gee here's the original play Runner on second advancing to third is hit by the batted ball. The runner is behind the third baseman, who misses ball entirely. Shortstop cannot make a play on the ball. This is similar to FED Case book play 8.4.2 Sitch:H which I explained above. Under FED rules, the runner is not out. Also, FED doesn't use the interpretations of J/R / Evans etc. That's why they have their own case book. You are correct using OBR rules, but not under FED which is what BPorter is asking. Pete Booth
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Peter M. Booth
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Fri May 25, 2001, 02:37pm
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Peter your talking about 8.4.2h, I think we are talking about 8.4.2k but don't know FED. Anyway your play in 8.4.2h is on a DEFLECTED ball and it is the same ruling in OBR. We were talking about an untouched ball that "PASSED" the fielder. Got a game to do. Later. G.
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Fri May 25, 2001, 03:16pm
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G,
OK. Your argument hinges around what constitutes "reasonable chance", the 3 - 5 feet rule. If that is stated in the rule book then I would have to call the runner out. Is it stated in the rule book? If so, where? By the letter of the rule (8-4-2k), however, I would still argue that play continues, because in my opinion, no infielder had a play on the ball and the contact was unintentional. Not going to let you off that easy :-) Bob
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Bob Porter
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