Balk or Illegal Pitch

[Gee]

First off, Just because I do not do Fed., does not mean I do not do HS games. Fed. is banned in Boston, we use the OBR. OK

Now to the wetting of the fingers. Can you tell me where you got the idea that wetting the fingers is a balk? I have never seen it in OBR, OBR interps nor anywhere else concerning OBR. The penalty is always a BALL, never, ever a balk.

Wetting the fingers is only written once in the OBR and that is in 8.02(a) Penalty, Ball. It is never mentioned in 8.05. No rule calls it a balk.

As to the dropped ball scenario. You ask why doesn't the rule say more. That could be said about a ton of other rules too. That is why there are interpretations, authoritative and Official, to clarify the rules. I posted one and I'll rest on that. G.

[Gee]

Originally posted by batterup
8.05j refers to a pitching position. 8.05k does not refer to a pitching position for a reason. It is not part of the rule. Historically I could go into the reasons why but let me simply state this.

You umpire games according to the level of the game. "Gee" says he doesn't do Fed games but he brings up a situation you would see in high school. Unknowingly standing on the rubber, looking at centerfield, rubbing the ball. And I suppose he was also wearing a batting glove.

I have never seen a pitcher do that in the college level or up. If he did I would probably call it a balk and both I and the pitcher would have a good laugh.

"Abergman"'s original question was at the Legion level. I hope he's not confused by all of this. He's looking for help at that level and we're talking about moves, (rubbing ball looking at centerfield while on the rubber) that should be corrected at instructional level baseball.

Legion is not an instructional league.

It is a ball when not on the rubber and in the dirt area when you lick your fingers. It is a balk on the rubber, not because the rules prohibit licking your fingers on the rubber but because you can't make those kind of stupid moves, (known as feinting or deceiving the runner), while you are on the rubber.

And lastly, if 8.05k was only to be applied when in a legal pitching position, it would say that instead of while touching his plate.

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First off, just because I do not do FED rules does not mean I do not do HS games. Fed rules are banned in Boston, we use OBR.

Second, Wetting fingers is only mentioned in the OBR one time. That is in OBR 8.02(a). Penalty BALL. It is not even mentioned in 8.05 where the balks are discussed. Please enlighten me where you get the balk idea from.

Third and final point. You ask why 8.05(k) doesn't go further with the rule.

That could be said of a ton of other rules and that is why the OBR is so confusing. For that reason we have authoritative opinions and official rulings to the OBR. I posted Jim Evans' Authoritative opinion on the dropped ball. That is enough for me. G.

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Gee
One last time. The pitcher asks for a new ball and is given one. He is facing center field and rubs up the ball.

He just happens to be standing on the rubber and drops the ball with men on base. Are you going to call that a balk?

From what you say, you are. I'm not, simply because the pitcher was not in a legal pitching position when he dropped it. OBR 8.01 describes only two legal pitching positions, 8.01(a) and 8.01(b).

Adendum.

Just checked JEA and 8.05(k). Jim Evans states, "If a pitcher has STARTED HIS DELIVERY when the ball slips out of his hand, rule 8.01(d) should be enforced......" G.

[Edited by Gee on Jun 4th, 2001 at 09:09 AM]

Well, I'm sorry, Gee, but you are as wrong as wrong can be and you know it. You quoted Evans out of context on purpose to bolster your argument. Why did you do that? It's okay to be wrong sometimes. Why not just say, "Gosh I was wrong," and get on with it?

Under 8.05(k) in Jim Evans Annotated, the very first sentence under Customs and Usage reads, "Once the pitcher assumes a position on the rubber with his pivot foot, he will be penalized should he drop the ball." (my emphasis)

The penalty under 8.05(k) is a balk.

You are correct, however, that 8.01(d) is only enforced when the pitcher has, in fact, started his delivery.

So, Gee's mistakes aside, here's the breakdown of the correct rulings:

• 1. Runners on base - a balk is called should the pitcher drop the ball while in contact with the rubber (whether he has begun his delivery or not and whether it crosses the foul line or not).
  
  2. No runners on base - if the pitcher drops the ball before the start of his delivery, it is nothing.
  
  3. No runners on base - if the pitcher starts his delivery and the ball slips from his hand, it is a ball if it crosses the foul line.
  
  4. No runners on base - if the pitcher starts his delivery and the ball slips from his hand, if it fails to cross the foul line it is declared a, "no pitch."

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by batterup
You umpire games according to the level of the game. "Gee" says he doesn't do Fed games but he brings up a situation you would see in high school.

Gee lives in Massachusetts, I live in Rhode Island. Both of our states use the Official Baseball Rules for high school baseball. If you mentioned the Federation around here, you'd quickly be given directions to the nearest Trekker Convention.

Originally posted by batterup
It is a ball when not on the rubber and in the dirt area when you lick your fingers. It is a balk on the rubber, not because the rules prohibit licking your fingers on the rubber but because you can't make those kind of stupid moves, (known as feinting or deceiving the runner), while you are on the rubber.

Well, not quite, batterup. If the pitcher is in contact with the rubber and goes to his mouth, it is called a ball whether there are runners on base or not. If, however, the pitcher is in the set position and he goes to his mouth, you may very well have a balk for some other reason, like separating the hands and not delivering or throwing to a base, as in 8.05(j).

That may be what you were trying to say, but I figured I'd clear it up a bit.

[Gee]

Originally posted by Jim Porter

Well, I'm sorry, Gee, but you are as wrong as wrong can be and you know it. You quoted Evans out of context on purpose to bolster your argument. Why did you do that? It's okay to be wrong sometimes. Why not just say, "Gosh I was wrong," and get on with it?

Under 8.05(k) in Jim Evans Annotated, the very first sentence under Customs and Usage reads, "Once the pitcher assumes a position on the rubber with his pivot foot, he will be penalized should he drop the ball." (my emphasis)

The penalty under 8.05(k) is a balk.

You are correct, however, that 8.01(d) is only enforced when the pitcher has, in fact, started his delivery.

So, Gee's mistakes aside, here's the breakdown of the correct rulings:

• 1. Runners on base - a balk is called should the pitcher drop the ball while in contact with the rubber (whether he has begun his delivery or not and whether it crosses the foul line or not).
  
  2. No runners on base - if the pitcher drops the ball before the start of his delivery, it is nothing.
  
  3. No runners on base - if the pitcher starts his delivery and the ball slips from his hand, it is a ball if it crosses the foul line.
  
  4. No runners on base - if the pitcher starts his delivery and the ball slips from his hand, if it fails to cross the foul line it is declared a, "no pitch."

[/B]

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Jim,
First off. If I knew I was wrong when I posted it I would not have posted it. Hope that clears that up. Please allow this to be a discussion and not an argument.

You are correct about the first sentence under Customs and Usage as to what it says.

Now if you read the Historical Notes in that same section you will read:

"The 1920 rule elucidated the rulmakers intent even more. A balk shall be called when "...the pitcher, in the act of delivering the ball to the batsman or throwing to first base, drops the ball, either intentionally or accidentally..." This interpretation is the basis of today's rule".

That means to me that the pitcher is in legal position when he drops it and not before.

Simply by reading that, then the section in Customs and Usage that I originally quoted, I do not think it would be out of line to interpret his first sentence in customs and Usage that says, "... when he assumes a position..." to mean a "LEGAL" position, That is exactly what I did. I still feel that way.

There was a discussion on EteamZ quite a while ago, my position was upheld by Jim Booth at that time, a pretty good rules guy. Next time you talk to him, ask him about it. G

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by Gee

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Jim,
First off. If I knew I was wrong when I posted it I would not have posted it. Hope that clears that up. Please allow this to be a discussion and not an argument.

You are correct about the first sentence under Customs and Usage as to what it says.

Now if you read the Historical Notes in that same section you will read:

"The 1920 rule elucidated the rulmakers intent even more. A balk shall be called when "...the pitcher, in the act of delivering the ball to the batsman or throwing to first base, drops the ball, either intentionally or accidentally..." This interpretation is the basis of today's rule".

That means to me that the pitcher is in legal position when he drops it and not before.

Simply by reading that, then the section in Customs and Usage that I originally quoted, I do not think it would be out of line to interpret his first sentence in customs and Usage that says, "... when he assumes a position..." to mean a "LEGAL" position, That is exactly what I did. I still feel that way.

There was a discussion on EteamZ quite a while ago, my position was upheld by Jim Booth at that time, a pretty good rules guy. Next time you talk to him, ask him about it. G [/B]

Gee,

Stop referencing only out of context quotations from Jim Evans to bolster your arguments and I won't get peeved. I find that to be a bush league tactic in the game of interpreting baseball rules. You knew that Jim Evans clearly explained that, with runners on base, dropping the ball while in contact with the pitcher's plate is a balk. You chose to omit the quote because it didn't support your position. I don't like that. I'll be glad to discuss any baseball rules with you as long as you report the whole picture. Yellow journalism is one thing I detest in this world. And you're a smart enough person not to have to resort to such tactics.

As far as the historical information, you have reported it correctly. The most important sentence in that quote is, "This interpretation is the basis of today's rule." The 1920 rule is only the basis for today's rule, not the actual rule. This is not 1920, it's 2001.

Jim Evans is quite clear regarding the differences, here. 8.01(d) refers to the start of the delivery, and 8.05(k) refers to a pitcher in contact with the rubber. They are two different rules, Gee, and you're considering them like they are the same. They are certainly related, but they are two separate and distinct rules.

You do not have the luxury of adding words to Jim Evans Annotated so it agrees with your assertions. Nonetheless, let's examine your addition of the word "legal" in there. For, what's illegal about a preliminary motion before coming set? Nothing! So, a pitcher in contact is indeed in a legal position. That doesn't change the interpretation one iota! The pitcher would still drop the ball while in contact with the rubber - that's a balk. That's what the rule says, and that's what JEA says.

If Jim Booth supported what you are saying here, then Jim Booth is wrong, too. He might be a good rules guy, but he certainly would've blown that one!

[Gee]

Originally posted by Jim Porter

Nonetheless, let's examine your addition of the word "legal" in there. For, what's illegal about a preliminary motion before coming set? Nothing! So, a pitcher in contact is indeed in a legal position. That doesn't change the interpretation one iota! The pitcher would still drop the ball while in contact with the rubber - that's a balk. That's what the rule says, and that's what JEA says.

If Jim Booth supported what you are saying here, then Jim Booth is wrong, too. He might be a good rules guy, but he certainly would've blown that one!

___________________________________________
Jim, i can't quote the whole book, I do try to quote the pertinant material though.

This whole discussion seems to revolve around Legal Pitching Position and Preliminary Motions. Windup vs windup stance and set vs set stance, there is a difference.

Preliminary motions are not illegal but they are not legal pitching positions. There are only two legal pitching positions, windup and set.

The OBR is pretty clear on Legal Pitching positions in 8.01, 8.01(a) and 8.01(b). Jim Evans, likewise, makes them pretty clear in the corresponding sections as well as others including 8.01(d) and 8.01(k).

All I am saying is that Jim Evans says nothing about Preliminary Motions when he cites a dropped ball.

He does though, cite Legal Pitching Position twice and Position once. I take Position to mean Legal Pitching Position. That is why I interpreted it to mean Legal. You take it to mean Preliminary Motion. If you don't add to it it has no meaning. I'll stick with my position. g.

[Rich]

....we always play winter rules.

Therefore, the pitcher can go to his mouth on the mound whenever he wants (grin).

Rich

[Gee]

Rich,

It seems that way. Saw the first round of the Div. 2 states last week. Masconomet vs Concord Carlisle. The Masco pitcher must have gone to his mouth,within the 18 foot circle at least 25 times.

No warnings, no penalty, nothing. I was embarassed. Did a Babe Ruth game last night, warned both pitchers about it in the first two innings. Never happened again. G.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Gee
Rich,

It seems that way. Saw the first round of the Div. 2 states last week. Masconomet vs Concord Carlisle. The Masco pitcher must have gone to his mouth,within the 18 foot circle at least 25 times.

No warnings, no penalty, nothing. I was embarassed. Did a Babe Ruth game last night, warned both pitchers about it in the first two innings. Never happened again. G.

Gee, whats your problem with F1 going to his mouth other than it's in the rules? As with any rule we need to examine it's intent.

At one time a PRO pitcher could throw what was referred to as the "Spitter". A Pro F1 similar to a pool shark with the cue ball can do tricks with the baseball - Your average amateur F1 cannot.

Also, I do not know about you, but in most games I umpire you have 3 maybe 4 brand new baseballs for the entire game and that's it. Around the 4th inning or so, there's scuff marks, mud, dirt etc. all over the baseballs and you want to worry about F1 going to his mouth.

The name of the game is to call strikes, why call a ball unnessarily. No I do not think the umpires should be embarrased in the above scenario but commended for not calling such a rediculous rule.

IMO, this rule is similar to the uniform rule, 20 second rule etc. - Don't call it

Now if a coach starts to complain etc. then we have to give a warning but that's it.

Pete Booth

[batterup]

I think it would be nice to return to the original question "abergman" asked. After all of this he still has no responses.

If the pitcher somehow balked while the walked batter was on his way to first, you still could not award him second.

The batter was awarded first because of the fourth ball but he is not on first until he touches the base. You really can't even call time to call the balk until you are sure the batter-runner is not going to turn and try for second.

Therefore, no one was on base if the balk occurred before the batter reached base and no bases would be awarded and the ball is still live.

If a ball were to be awarded it would be to the next batter.

[Gee]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by Gee
Rich,

It seems that way. Saw the first round of the Div. 2 states last week. Masconomet vs Concord Carlisle. The Masco pitcher must have gone to his mouth,within the 18 foot circle at least 25 times.

No warnings, no penalty, nothing. I was embarassed. Did a Babe Ruth game last night, warned both pitchers about it in the first two innings. Never happened again. G.
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Gee, whats your problem with F1 going to his mouth other than it's in the rules? As with any rule we need to examine it's intent.

At one time a PRO pitcher could throw what was referred to as the "Spitter". A Pro F1 similar to a pool shark with the cue ball can do tricks with the baseball - Your average amateur F1 cannot.

Also, I do not know about you, but in most games I umpire you have 3 maybe 4 brand new baseballs for the entire game and that's it. Around the 4th inning or so, there's scuff marks, mud, dirt etc. all over the baseballs and you want to worry about F1 going to his mouth.

The name of the game is to call strikes, why call a ball unnessarily. No I do not think the umpires should be embarrased in the above scenario but commended for not calling such a rediculous rule.

IMO, this rule is similar to the uniform rule, 20 second rule etc. - Don't call it

Now if a coach starts to complain etc. then we have to give a warning but that's it.

Pete Booth

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First off Peter I have never called a ball in that sitch, always a warning. In varsity, I tell the pitchers, discreetly, that they can't do it. If they inadvertently do it, I don't see it, however if they make a joke out of it, like the kid I cited before, I'm going to bang 'em.

If you don't, your leaving the job for the next ump or the next level. Yes, it is in the rules, When do you start enforcing it? JV? V? College? Pro?

It has to be enforced sooner or later and in my opinion, the sooner the better. Don't think of it as a booger that hurts the kid. Think of it as HELPING the kid for the future.

Last nights game was a Junior Babe Ruth game, 14 and 15 year olds. In the first inning the pitcher threw four pitches, wet his fingers on every pitch. I went out to the mound and told him about it, he said he knows but has a bad habit. I explained to him that as he goes up the ladder he is going to be burnt on that. He only wet his fingers once after that and I didn't see it. Problem solved, I hope.

So you say wait until the coach comes out and explains the rule to you. Not me, I'm being paid to know the rules. Then you say you have to give a warning. Not in OBR, nor my league nor my Association. No warnings, bang it. G.

[Bfair]

I will try to answer abergman's original question by using a question.

How can a pitcher balk while a BR is on his way to 1st base???

The only way I could possibly think someone could twist the rules to do that would be if F1 were on the rubber and dropped the ball. I would not consider F1 on the rubber "and ready to pitch" (which is what I use as my default criteria in this call) until BR got to 1st. I would not balk him for that.

That is why Fed has added to their wording when the pitcher "intentionally" contacts the pitching rubber---to avoid BS of touching the rubber when not intended.

Just my opinion,

Steve