LL Minn vs Iows

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I'd rephrase this as: Some (too many) youth league umpires choose to remain bad even though they have the opportunity to improve their skills.

It's not just a LL situation.

Moving up is only one way to improve one's skills.

Too many are stuck in the "unconcious incompetence" state of umpiring -- they don't know that they're "bad", and, might think that they are "better" than those that work higher levels.

Let me change the subject slightly. I just saw Hawaii beat Davenport, IA. The plate umpire called every foul ball as if was a life/death matter.

I teach my students to yell "Foul!" (after "Time") only when their opinion matters: close play or runners advancing.

Have I been doing that wrong?

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Jim Mills

We have guys in FED and even in the odd couple in NCAA that do that. They look like, dare I say, LL umpires.

You're teaching that exactly right--and you know it.

I've been told by some pros that "foul" is not for calls but for discussion: "Yes, Joe, it was foul," says Froemming after yelling "Time!" on ARod's smash down the line.

[LMan]

While the last guy in the med-school class is still called, "Doctor,".....I understand that local LLs have to use the umpires they can get and can't be too choosy.


..what I can't understand is why LL umpires with such obvious deficiencies are permitted/encouraged to work the LLWS on national television.....when even Harold Reynolds chews on you for 3 innings over an open mike, you have a serious credibility problem. Last night (I think, its been a rough weekend ) I watched part of a game where the PU set up at a perfect 45* angle (in the slot) to the batter and catcher- he was facing F4 square away for every pitch. How do you call a zone when you have to look over your left shoulder to see the pitcher? Does Lance know about this?

Does anyone from Williamsport watch these guys work before offering a position in Regionals or higher?


....in all the 'thousands' of 'health care professionals' out there, aren't there LL umpires who at least *approximate* a higher standard of umpire? Can't this cream-of-the-crop make it to the Regionals or Williamsport?




Isn't it important to the LL management?

jes sayin'

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by LMan
I watched part of a game where the PU set up at a perfect 45* angle (in the slot) to the batter and catcher- he was facing F4 square away for every pitch. How do you call a zone when you have to look over your left shoulder to see the pitcher? Does Lance know about this?

I have not watched any of the LL World Series and will not be watching any so I did not see this umpire. However, that is the way the I learned to set up in the slot. Not at 45 degrees like you mentioned, but I am angled directly at F4 for a right hand batter. Likewise, my head is lined up with F4. My eyes are cocked to look at the pitcher but they are looking straight ahead as the ball passes over the plate.

I learned this method in 1991 from John Porter (who claims to have invented it), when all of the pro schools were teaching that the head should be aimed directly at the pitcher. I outlined this method in my first Internet article in 1999 which is still available on ABUA. I have noticed that there are several MLB umpires who now use this method. Over the years, I have mentioned several reasons why this method is superior, especially for umpires over age 25. You can be most accurate in pitch calling when your head is aimed straight at the strike zone. Being aimed straight at the pitcher provides no extra value. Where it leaves his hand is not important; where it passes over the plate is.

This method is harder to learn and one must be continually checked out in the cage by a teacher or he will tend to over compensate and get into other bad habits. From your description, this may have been what happened to the Little League umpire.

Peter

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by LDUB

Does Billy say that he wants to be bad at what he does and have other people laugh at him when they see his work?

LL umpires are bad, and many laugh at them when they are on TV.

I would assume Billy would try to be the best computer game designer he can be. LL umpires choose to remain bad, even though they have the opportunity to move up and improve their skills.

No, Billy doesn't want to be bad. And he will strive to be the best computer game designer he can be. But he doesn't have to work for EA Games to achieve that.

You conveniently skipped over the point, which I also illustrated with managers and league presidents.

You cannot rationally equate a choice to not move up the ladder with "badness". You cannot say logically that a manager is bad because he doesn't want to be the HS coach. You cannot logically say the league pres is bad because he doesn't want to be the HS AD or the LL DA. And you cannot logically say an umpire is bad because he doesn't want to be HS umpire.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
No, Billy doesn't want to be bad. And he will strive to be the best computer game designer he can be. But he doesn't have to work for EA Games to achieve that.

What is your point? You can be a good umpire and not work MLB. There is a difference between trying to be the very best and being competent.

Originally posted by Rich Ives
You conveniently skipped over the point, which I also illustrated with managers and league presidents.

You cannot rationally equate a choice to not move up the ladder with "badness". You cannot say logically that a manager is bad because he doesn't want to be the HS coach. You cannot logically say the league pres is bad because he doesn't want to be the HS AD or the LL DA.

What type of college degree do you need to be a LL president? What type of college degree do you need to be a HS AD? None of your presidents have the schooling to be an AD.

LL coaches are just the first dad who says he is off work by 5:00. In many places, HS coaches are school faculty. So unless this LL coach is a teacher, he has no chance of coaching.

In a place where school districts hire anyone to coach, they don't just hire the first shmuch who steps up. You have to have some level of skill.

Originally posted by Rich Ives
And you cannot logically say an umpire is bad because he doesn't want to be HS umpire.

Yes you can. Read Jenkins' post above. Moving up is the only way to improve one's skills. If working LL all your life got you good at umpiring, then why do we see these losers on TV?

[UMP25]

Knowing several regular LL umpires who have "worked their way up," I can assure you that the vast majority of these guys get Regionals and World Series assignments not based on their quality or ability but on politics and kissing arse.

The Association of which I am president assigns upper level ball (NCAA and summer college primarily), but a few years ago, we were given the task of assigning the Illinois State LL Tournament--4 umpires per game. Even I worked the games. We had a blast, the games were great, and the compliments we received from each member team were endless.

Before the tournament started, I get contacted via Email from an umpire not a member of our association. He told me he was trying to get to Indianapolis to work the Regionals and that he needed to work the state tournament to "be seen." I knew who this umpire was; I had nothing against him personally or professionally. Truthfully, he wasn't that good of an umpire. I respectfully told him I couldn't use him because our association was contracted to work it and our guys would receive that honor. He wasn't happy, telling me that he "needed to work." Further inquiries to him revealed that to get to Williamsport, one must do a lot of LL games, particularly at the upper tourney levels, and make sure that LL upper crusties see you.

It's obvious these upper crusties wouldn't recognize quality umpiring if it hit them in the face.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
[You cannot rationally equate a choice to not move up the ladder with "badness". You cannot say logically that a manager is bad because he doesn't want to be the HS coach. You cannot logically say the league pres is bad because he doesn't want to be the HS AD or the LL DA. And you cannot logically say an umpire is bad because he doesn't want to be HS umpire.

You are right. You cannot logically call someone bad because they do not want to move up. But you can call them unmotivated. Unmotivated people, over time, tend to become bad.

Somewhere in this discussion, a poster brought up the subject of the health care profession. The health care profession has two tracks at the top, doctors and nurses. What would you say about an orderly in a hospital who never took advantage of inexpensive community college courses to become an x-ray technician? Or the housekeeping person who never went on to become a LPN. Or the LPN who never went on to become an RN. Or even the dishwasher who never went on to become hospital chef.

The hospitals pay their people to go through these courses. They are desparate for trained workers. If you saw someone who had been an orderly for ten years and never taken advantage of these opportunities, you would be right to conclude theat he was:

1. too stupid to take the courses, i.e. learning disabilities or IQ disabilities.
2. unable to read and write English.
3. unmotivated

In any case, these people are held in distain by the public at large. Likewise, LL umpires are held in distain. From the descriptions of what I read here about their performance at Williamsport, it is not hard to see why.

It may be wrong for us to view those at the bottom of the ladder as unmotivated but that is the way that this country operates. There are lots of reasons for staying at the bottom, but this country operates under the assumtion that everyone tries to better himself. When we see people who make a profession of being at the bottom, we cast stones. Little League umpires are not being treated any differently from anyone else.

Peter

[LMan]

....Originally posted by His High Holiness
This method is harder to learn and one must be continually checked out in the cage by a teacher or he will tend to over compensate and get into other bad habits. From your description, this may have been what happened to the Little League umpire.

Peter [/B]

Fair enough..if this is an accepted mechanic, I apologize for my error. I'll keep my keyboard to myself next time

[Tim C]

For all you Conspiracy Theorists:

It has always been my position that LL picks EXACTLY the umpires they want for the World Series.

IF the LL board selected four college umpires (that also work LL, such as Rich Fronhesier that posts to this Forum) and they did a GREAT job it would impact LL by many of the 100,000 volunteer umpires recognizing how bad they are.

This, in turn, would say to those umpires: "Well no matter how hard I work for a hotdog and a coke I'll never be able to work the highest quality games -- those at the LLWS."

With the way things are done now the same umpire can think: "Gees, these guys are horrible -- if I just offer to do this for 22 more years I am bound to get my chance at the big time!"

In all seriousness:

The administration of the LLWS either:

1) Does not know good (or bad) umpiring when they see it,

2) Place senority over all else when making selections,

3) Reward certain areas of the US for being loyal scouts or,

4) Allows the political side of LL to overwhelmingly influence the selection process.

So all you LL Kool-aide drinkers do you really think:

a) All obvious foul balls should be called out loud,

b) That plate umpires should to EACH hitter say, "Batter -up",

c) That you really need a game where ALL SIX umpires have indiclickercounters,

d) That after each have inning (or after every play when involved) a base needs brushing.

e) Let's digress to c): could there be any small diamond game that "needs" six umpires?

This all leaves LL up to great lanes of criticism.

Rightfully so I might add.

T

[tmp44]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I'd rephrase this as: Some (too many) youth league umpires choose to remain bad even though they have the opportunity to improve their skills.

It's not just a LL situation.

Moving up is only one way to improve one's skills.

Too many are stuck in the "unconcious incompetence" state of umpiring -- they don't know that they're "bad", and, might think that they are "better" than those that work higher levels.

I've never worked a LL game in my life; but that's mostly because PONY is the dominant association around here. However, I have worked PONY and it's higher and lower levels now for 5 years and I completely agree with Bob. Fortunately for myself I have moved from an association where this was the rule and I was the exception (I was the only FED umpire in the entire summer ball association) to one where the opposite occurs.

[JEAPU2000]

Originally posted by Tim C


So all you LL Kool-aide drinkers do you really think:

a) All obvious foul balls should be called out loud,

b) That plate umpires should to EACH hitter say, "Batter -up",

c) That you really need a game where ALL SIX umpires have indiclickercounters,

d) That after each have inning (or after every play when involved) a base needs brushing.

e) Let's digress to c): could there be any small diamond game that "needs" six umpires?

This all leaves LL up to great lanes of criticism.

Rightfully so I might add.

T [/B]

T, you forgot

f) that a LL game should last more than 2 hours.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Tim C
For all you Conspiracy Theorists:


4) Allows the political side of LL to overwhelmingly influence the selection process.

T

B I N G O, Right, Correctamongo, You got it, You da Man.!!!!

And I did my time in the trenches as coach,umpire, director and member of the local and district boards. The Williamsport corporate structure has a very tough time with ANYONE that does not use the words "corporate sponsership" in a sentence with the word change. VERY TOUGH TIME

[Edited by jicecone on Aug 23rd, 2005 at 12:15 PM]

[LDUB]

There are good umpires like Rich Fronheiser who work LL baseball. So why is it that we see guys on TV brushing off second base, and calling strikes before the ball gets to the catcher? Rich and others would gladly work these games for free. In any other championship, the TD would try to get the best possible officials on the field. But LL refuses to do this. Why is that?

There are some guys who work nothing but LL baseball the whole spring, and they do it all for free. Many of these guys would like to work games in the LL tournament. LL is not dumb, they know anyone would get sick of calling 30+ LL games for free each spring if they didn't get anything in return. These guys must be rewarded with LL tournament games.

This is when Rich comes in. Rich and his buddies offer to work LL tournament games. LL does not "owe" Rich anything. But LL does "owe" the guys who have worked many regular season LL games for free over the years. LL must give these guys the (hope of getting) higher level torunament games if LL expects them to continue to work for free durring the regular season.

It is all about money. If all LL regular season umpires were paid, then LL would owe them nothing come tournament time. LL would be able to select the best guys who are willing to work the games (for free or pay.) But as we all know, this will never happen. LL is content with the level of the officiating in their World Series. Untill this viewpoint changes, nothing will ever be done.

It would be possible for LL to do this secertly. They would not have to issue a statement to the local leagues to begin paying all umpires. If LL started to assign the best umpires to the LLWS, regardless of what LL "owes" them, some of the less skilled umpires would realize that they will never make it Williamsport. If they have no more aspirations to work the LLWS, many will drop out of the volunteer umpire program. Local LLs will be unable to find umpires willing to work for free, therefore they will be forced into paying their umpires.

[Carl Childress]

It's a hotdog and a Dr Prpper.