LL Minn vs Iows

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Rich Ives SNIPED
It's interesting to note that the biggest LL bashers (Tee and Ozzy) aren't involved in LL, and in fact refuse to get involved so you need to ask yourself how they happen to know so much about how it works.

I can't speak for Tee nor will I try to.

As far as I am concerned, I put my time into LL many eons ago. Coaching, umpiring, UIC and being a parent of 3 (count them) 3 children who went through the "LL experience" - and that was only because there was nothing else at the time. So don't even think of telling me that I don't know what goes on in LL, Rich. I'm telling you as a former "insider" that LL sucks - period. The difference between you and me is I looked around 15 years ago and decided that this was crap and walked away. I do not coach, I have no ties to any league and I just umpire (on the 90' diamond).

Or maybe, I just grew up!

[Rich Ives]

Ozzy,

I'm having a very hard time understanding how your experience with LL in your area translates to a condemnation of LL itself and all the local leagues throughout the world.

What happened?

Was it a local issue or driven by overall LL rules and policies?

[Matthew F]

Just about every organized sport I have encountered is polluted with money and/or politics and is generally worse as is grows in size (local -> regional -> national). Even umpire organizations are not exempt from this, where politics plays a very heavy role. School sports seem to be better than the norm although they are filled with "beg-a-thons" and the occasional parent manipulating the system to get their child into a specific district/school.

Pick any organization and they have their flaws.

If we were to choose the games we umpire based on the "purity" of the organization, we would be sitting on our couches at home.

[LMan]

personally, I just want to know what the LL Regional umps had for dinner last night

[TBBlue]

Originally posted by LMan
personally, I just want to know what the LL Regional umps had for dinner last night

A Regional Dog and soda...

[TBBlue]

Ozzy,
Thanks for clarifying your experiences. Your opinions are honest, as are mine. It all depends on personal experiences and what you want out of life.

Matthew,
Well put. ALL organizations have issues.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by TBBlue
$500+ for a season of travel ball + anywhere from $100 to $500 per player for tourneys with no expenses picked up is a rip-off.

Better read my article tomorrow. Your $ figures are too low!

Peter

[TBBlue]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

Better read my article tomorrow. Your $ figures are too low!

Peter

My only basis is what I was charged for 1.5 months of fall ball last year plus $250 each for a 4 team end of season tourney, of which 3 of the teams were from the same (our) organization. It was to be a 12 team tourney at registration (collect the money) time. The tourney field was our home field as well. Oh yeah, I forgot the mandatory (practice and game)uniforms ($200.00). We did it so my marginal player could play up and be ready for 12 yo pitching in the spring. So in that sense, he did get something out of it...(3 innings every other game) plus practice everyday. He was confident and had fun this spring. It was still a rip off though.

From talking to an AAU coach, that is average for the area. Some teams charge $2k for each season (fall and spring) plus the incidentals mentioned above.

Edited for spelling.

[Edited by TBBlue on Aug 16th, 2005 at 06:15 PM]

[David B]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

Better read my article tomorrow. Your $ figures are too low!

Peter

Look forward to the article. An umpire friend of mine and I were talking about "select ball" the other day and I was talking about how it is NOT "select" - unless you want to select by being able to afford.

He told me his grandson was playing the summer and they had spent already in excess of $3000 this year and still have fall season to go - ridiculous.

And I've called the league a few times (15-18's) - the local summer league has better ball and it costs $70 to play.

Thanks
David

[akabaseball]

(R3 comes down and makes contact with F2 with his shoulder first, after the throw went past F2)

(If this was NCAA/NF play, would you have called a malicious crash, obstruction, interference, or a combo of those?)

No! because the attempt to field the ball had passed before the contact,,, The catcher did not have time to get out of the way after the missed attempt...

Runner is not at fault unless the ball was being fielded or in the possesion of the catcher.

There is an argument for obstruction, therefore if the kid had not made the plate, he could be awarded that plate.

This is a stupid coaches oppinion, so dont sue me ump.

[Matthew F]

Originally posted by akabaseball
(R3 comes down and makes contact with F2 with his shoulder first, after the throw went past F2)

(If this was NCAA/NF play, would you have called a malicious crash, obstruction, interference, or a combo of those?)

No! because the attempt to field the ball had passed before the contact,,, The catcher did not have time to get out of the way after the missed attempt...

Runner is not at fault unless the ball was being fielded or in the possesion of the catcher.

There is an argument for obstruction, therefore if the kid had not made the plate, he could be awarded that plate.

This is a stupid coaches oppinion, so dont sue me ump.

One of the NFHS casebook plays under 8.4.2 does not agree with you and specifically states that the act of obstruction does not negate the runner's responsibility to avoid a fielder legally - a runner is required to legally attempt to avoid a fielder or legally slide.

In this case, R3 drops his shoulder and runs into F2. That is malicious contact and the runner is ejected. If R3 hasn't touched home before the malicious contact, he is also out.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Tim C
Gee Rich, here comes another "over the top" comment from Tee:

I would not work a game that "required" me to wear an adjustable hat. If they can't invest in me, who would be required to be working for free anyway, I certainly wouldn't "invest" (my time) with them.

Sorry Rich, I care.

I'm right fond of Tee, you know. He provides Officiating.com with some quality material.

But, as I say in On Deck, Tee has strong opinions, and that sometimes rubs people the wrong way. Even me. I want to use Tee's message to get some chips off my shoulders.

1. Little League is the largest baseball organization in the world with hundreds of thousands of umpires, give or take a few thousand. There are many things wrong with them. I don't like tight bases. I don't like reentry in any spot in the line-up. I don't like a designated runner for the fat first baseman. I don't like it that the MUST PARTICIPATE rule goes by the wayside at tournament time.

So I don't call Little League. Umpires who go ballistic when anyone mentions "volunteerism" or "hotdog and a coke" should just stay away. They are NOT going to change Little League. Best bet: Stick with comments about Leagues you understand and work for.

2. This wannabe business of "us" and "rats" began as an amusing sidebar. Umpires are in control, rats are evil. We must never give in to rats. Etc., etc. Bruce Froemming railed against cutting rats any slack: "Once you've s***ed a d***, you'll be a c********* all your life!"

Let me say this: The most ridiculous idea I've ever seen posted on a baseball internet board (even worse than "The ball hit his hand and went foul. Dead ball, strike on the batter) is this: All coaches are rats.

The categorical syllogism these pro-emulators use is absolutely valid:

A. All amateur coaches are rats.
B. He is an amateur coach.
Therefore: C: He is a rat.

The problem lies in the major premise: It just flat ain't true.

In my career, I have observed coaches: (1) refuse to run up a score on a vastly inferior team; (2) come out to correct a ruling that went in their favor; (3) correct a score after the game that allowed the other team to win; (4) render aid to a striken umpire; (5) without being asked, calm the crowd/parents; (6) absolutely never come out or argue or complain or chirp or snicker; (7) spend hundreds, even thousands of dollars to outfit poor players (happens all the time in my neck of the woods); (8) speak highly (in the paper, at the Lion's Club) of officials and their importance to the game. (9) Etc.

These guys who've adopted the professional attitude (at least as applies to their behavior toward coaches on the field) should quantify their premise:

A. Some coaches are rats.
B. He is a coach.
Therefore, C: He may be a rat.

A student once drew his "particulat" conclusion of a similar syllogism: He is some coach.

Look, if the umpire rat-haters posting here treated coaches as they claim, they would simply not get called for games. As Peter Osborne astutely points out, assignors like peace and quiet. He should know: He was one.

Now, we grizzled veterans know the emulators aren't describing what they actually do. But their posts do a disservice to less-experienced amateur officials.

3. It's sort of dumb to bandy words with Rich Ives. He's a sophisticated, knowledgeable League administrator and with more years in baseball than most of the umpires on this Board. He is calm, doesn't troll, doesn't overstate his case, admits it when he's wrong, doesn't crow when he's right. All you need to do to verify that Rich is a treaure is go to eTeamz and read the messages on the Coach's Board. Ouch!

4. Another coach, John Muller, has proved repeatedly that he knows the rules as well as any umpire on this Board. (Well, almost any umpire. grin)

5. Warren Willson and I once collaborated on a definition of the umpire's duty/charge/obligation:

He is present to ensure that no team gains an advantage not intended by the rules. (me)
He is present to ensure the regulations of the League that hired him are enforced. (Warren)

From my career: Wear an adjustable hat? Do the eye test with The Famous Chicken? Wear a shirt with a patch? Kick dirt off a base? Rub up a ball during the game? Wear a retro-uniform?

Sure. Why not?

That I'm human and act courteously doesn't mean I've sold out. As Patton said: "I'm here so you can see if I'm as big a son-of-***** as you think I am."

And our "hit parade" (who reads what and when) still proves Roland is also not nearly so bad as some claim. (grin)

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Carl Childress
From my career: Wear an adjustable hat? Do the eye test with The Famous Chicken? Wear a shirt with a patch? Kick dirt off a base? Rub up a ball during the game? Wear a retro-uniform?

Sure. Why not?

I don't think that all of those things are equal, some of them aren't bad at all. Even Tee has said that he wore a retro-uniform with black slacks, white shirt and tie, and a outside protector.

[Tim C]

Carl I think life is about personal choices.

If I believe that, in my heart, then I should allow others to make the decisions that THEY can live with . . . that is fine.

AS "keepers of the game" people have various responsibilities to make sure that the game is protected and certain activities are at least "viewed."

As my friend Tony Peters says: "as an umpire I only report what I see . . . other than that I have little responsibility."

I will comment on only a few of your points:

"(4) render aid to a striken umpire;"

As I mentioned on the paid part of the site in my column I was amazed this past school season when I was nailed by a deflected pitch and coaches from both teams came to my aid.

I also commented in the column that may, just maybe, some coaches were fine. In fact I mentioned that I have friends that coach . . . and (psst) I even respect a few guys in my area.

"3. It's sort of dumb to bandy words with Rich Ives. He's a sophisticated, knowledgeable League administrator and with more years in baseball than most of the umpires on this Board."

Sorry CC I just can't agree. Rich is a Rat with a capital "R". While not as "Crooked" as some of the coaches on the ABUA website he is still Rat-centered and makes more silly comments than even me.

It is my opinion that this Forum would be better off without Rich -- in fact I have offered to leave the Forum if Rich would -- he declined.

"4. Another coach, John Muller, has proved repeatedly that he knows the rules as well as any umpire on this Board. (Well, almost any umpire. grin)"

I am not surprised in this comment. John, much like you, does deep study of the rules. Unlike you he has not worked as an umpire and has no idea of how the entire ebb and flow of a game sometimes dictates how that game is called.

Anyone can read JEA, J/R, BRD, NAPBL Manual and the MLB Red Book and make text book conversation. We have "real umpires" (tm) that do the same thing with game experience.

Again we would be better off without a coach trying to teach umpires the rules. But I understand, you like the acadameia of John's work. That is fine.

"From my career: Wear an adjustable hat? Do the eye test with The Famous Chicken? Wear a shirt with a patch? Kick dirt off a base? Rub up a ball during the game? Wear a retro-uniform?"

I would only take issue with my "opinion" that as a "professor of umpiring" that you should hold yourself to a higher standard.

I would never dance with a mascot, wear an adjustable hat, or take an eye test as part of an onfield prank. There are other umpires let them make a travesty of the profession.

Carl, life is a series of personal choices.

Do what ever you think is right, but remember many umpires of the future will follow your direction. Please remember to save at least a little of the tradition of umpiring.

In closing I would find it best if I did not comment on the guy from "downunder".

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Tim C
Carl I think life is about personal choices.

If I believe that, in my heart, then I should allow others to make the decisions that THEY can live with . . . that is fine.

AS "keepers of the game" people have various responsibilities to make sure that the game is protected and certain activities are at least "viewed."

As my friend Tony Peters says: "as an umpire I only report what I see . . . other than that I have little responsibility."

I will comment on only a few of your points:

"(4) render aid to a striken umpire;"

As I mentioned on the paid part of the site in my column I was amazed this past school season when I was nailed by a deflected pitch and coaches from both teams came to my aid.

I also commented in the column that may, just maybe, some coaches were fine. In fact I mentioned that I have friends that coach . . . and (psst) I even respect a few guys in my area.

"3. It's sort of dumb to bandy words with Rich Ives. He's a sophisticated, knowledgeable League administrator and with more years in baseball than most of the umpires on this Board."

Sorry CC I just can't agree. Rich is a Rat with a capital "R". While not as "Crooked" as some of the coaches on the ABUA website he is still Rat-centered and makes more silly comments than even me.

It is my opinion that this Forum would be better off without Rich -- in fact I have offered to leave the Forum if Rich would -- he declined.

"4. Another coach, John Muller, has proved repeatedly that he knows the rules as well as any umpire on this Board. (Well, almost any umpire. grin)"

I am not surprised in this comment. John, much like you, does deep study of the rules. Unlike you he has not worked as an umpire and has no idea of how the entire ebb and flow of a game sometimes dictates how that game is called.

Anyone can read JEA, J/R, BRD, NAPBL Manual and the MLB Red Book and make text book conversation. We have "real umpires" (tm) that do the same thing with game experience.

Again we would be better off without a coach trying to teach umpires the rules. But I understand, you like the acadameia of John's work. That is fine.

"From my career: Wear an adjustable hat? Do the eye test with The Famous Chicken? Wear a shirt with a patch? Kick dirt off a base? Rub up a ball during the game? Wear a retro-uniform?"

I would only take issue with my "opinion" that as a "professor of umpiring" that you should hold yourself to a higher standard.

I would never dance with a mascot, wear an adjustable hat, or take an eye test as part of an onfield prank. There are other umpires let them make a travesty of the profession.

Carl, life is a series of personal choices.

Do what ever you think is right, but remember many umpires of the future will follow your direction. Please remember to save at least a little of the tradition of umpiring.

In closing I would find it best if I did not comment on the guy from "downunder".

Tee: Well said!