LL Minn vs Iows

[TBBlue]

...the TV umpires are so over the top and almost comical.

This year I worked District finals (13-14 juniors), Sectionals (9-10), State (13 - 14), and Southern Region fill-in (16-18 Big League). At no time in any of those tournaments did a local or Southern Region evaluator either coach us, or mark off for not calling these games like a Fed HS playoff game. Pro mechanics are what were expected in all levels, especially the Big League Southern Region. That was a very intense weekend, especially for the 8 appointed guys. The SR evaluator actually said before the pre-tourney meeting for BU's to lose the brushes, only one foul call, and only if not an obvious foul. Nothing over the top. Sell it if it needed to be sold, otherwise just solid mechanics. Everything was to be by PBUC book, and they were very very strict on the four man mechanics. I had a blast and learned a lot in three days.

I live near Southern Region HQ, so it floored me when I went to some games last week and the umpires were so...how do I say it???...They weren't really bad (one was), but they appeared to have been coached by someone to be over the top on all of their calls. They weren't being evaluated by the S.R. guys who evaluated my games. Emphatic outs when BR is halfway to 1b. Emphatic foul calls always. They didn't look natural. It was like Harold Reynolds coached them to be on T.V. and was evaluating them. It wasn't one or two guys either. It was the whole 12 man crew. They were like robots, and weren't comfortable with what they were doing.

Bottom line is that I think they look so horrible on TV because the World Series Evaluators are so damn worried about the TV that they forget umpiring is not a made for TV sport.

[David B]

There can't be an evaluation process in the LL groups. If there was then it would eliminate all (nearly all) of the umpires involved.

I recently called in several summer tourneys and all of them had the UIC who evaluated and eliminated umpires through the first two days of tourney action.

IMO its really not that hard to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

Then through the last four days we had very good umpires calling the last several games.

Thanks
David

[TBBlue]

Originally posted by David B
There can't be an evaluation process in the LL groups. If there was then it would eliminate all (nearly all) of the umpires involved.


Thanks
David

That is a blatant false statement. It doesn't mean politics isn't involved and it doesn't mean all groups evaluate. I assure you however, once you get to sectionals in Florida, there are evaluations. Please don't make blanket "factual" statements that you don't know the particulars.

[Rich]

Originally posted by LDUB
There are good umpires like Rich Fronheiser who work LL baseball. So why is it that we see guys on TV brushing off second base, and calling strikes before the ball gets to the catcher? Rich and others would gladly work these games for free. In any other championship, the TD would try to get the best possible officials on the field. But LL refuses to do this. Why is that?

There are some guys who work nothing but LL baseball the whole spring, and they do it all for free. Many of these guys would like to work games in the LL tournament. LL is not dumb, they know anyone would get sick of calling 30+ LL games for free each spring if they didn't get anything in return. These guys must be rewarded with LL tournament games.

This is when Rich comes in. Rich and his buddies offer to work LL tournament games. LL does not "owe" Rich anything. But LL does "owe" the guys who have worked many regular season LL games for free over the years. LL must give these guys the (hope of getting) higher level torunament games if LL expects them to continue to work for free durring the regular season.

It is all about money. If all LL regular season umpires were paid, then LL would owe them nothing come tournament time. LL would be able to select the best guys who are willing to work the games (for free or pay.) But as we all know, this will never happen. LL is content with the level of the officiating in their World Series. Untill this viewpoint changes, nothing will ever be done.

It would be possible for LL to do this secertly. They would not have to issue a statement to the local leagues to begin paying all umpires. If LL started to assign the best umpires to the LLWS, regardless of what LL "owes" them, some of the less skilled umpires would realize that they will never make it Williamsport. If they have no more aspirations to work the LLWS, many will drop out of the volunteer umpire program. Local LLs will be unable to find umpires willing to work for free, therefore they will be forced into paying their umpires.

LL owes me nothing. I make myself available for LL regular season games locally, but with my work travel and the rest of my schedule, I don't do a LOT of those games. Besides, the kids that umpire for us in the local leagues need the experience and the regular season games are the place for that. In the tournament, District umpires are used and that's a different, smaller group.

Come tournament time, I block off my schedule for the most part and do nothing but LL (I assign a 44-team adult league, so I do work those games on Sundays, but that's it otherwise). Last season I worked the District Majors, Juniors, and Seniors as well as the State Juniors and Seniors.

We all choose to do community service in one way or another. Mine combines something I enjoy (umpiring) with some giveback to the community. In all the games I worked this season, I only had one coach that was a small problem and NO ejections -- none in any of the tournaments, if I recall correctly, and at the district level we have at LEAST 4-5 umpires who work college baseball (or should).

Whether or not I ever get to Indianapolis or to one of the other regional tournaments (I would prefer to do a Junior or Senior regional since they play on the big diamond) is out of my hands. Some say I'm crazy, but then again I went ot the Netherlands on my own dime this summer and umpired 16 games for the tidy sum of food, beer, and a bed to sleep in.

I enjoy watching all this every season. And I used to be one of the LL bashers until I got involved personally. Now I'm on the other side and I enjoy it. So what? If you don't want to work the games, don't.

--Rich

[David B]

Originally posted by TBBlue

That is a blatant false statement. It doesn't mean politics isn't involved and it doesn't mean all groups evaluate. I assure you however, once you get to sectionals in Florida, there are evaluations. Please don't make blanket "factual" statements that you don't know the particulars.

Okay, I'll take your bait, maybe they do in Florida, but how many umpires are there in LLWS from Florida?

And I'll rephrase my position: if they do evaluate, I'd hate to see the criteria they use.

It can't be close to the evaluations that I've been used to through the years and I know that for a fact since I've watched the guys umpire the games the last couple of weeks and seen very very poor mechanics and approach to the game.

But as I stated, that must be the way LL wants it. I've only seen a couple of umpires that I would want on my crew.

Thanks
David

[TBBlue]

David,
I appreciate the rephrase, and figured that's what you meant, but had to call out the blanket statement of no evals.

I honestly don't know if anyone from FL is on TV this year. We had a guy from my district there in 03. I believe I can umpire circles around this guy, but he said he had a blast dancing with Dugout. I just won't do that...ever.

The point of my original post was the fact that in the levels that move you up...Sectionals and States (in Florida)...the evaluation is identical to what the FHSAA uses. In the Big League Southern Region...NO TV...they used professional standards for the WS evals. It was very intense, and a fantastic learning experience for me.

However, once the guys get to Majors (12yo) Southern Region (TV game for finals), the way they called the games was totally different from what the criteria had been up to that point. Southern Regions gets evaluated for World Series (TV all the way through). I wasn't in the umpire room, so can't say for sure, but the way everything changed on the field, those guys are being coached to go over the top for TV presentation.

There is no way 12 different guys from all over the SE can have such horrid, yet similar mechanics at the same time, unless that is what they were told to do. That is wrong and that is why these guys are Sooooo noticable when they screw up. Because of this, I forsee that I will never be on TV for LL because I'm not changing just for TV.

The bigger problem is that after you are rated to move up...State, Region, whatever...it is up to a DA or Region bureaucrat as to who actually moves up from the approved list, not the actual umpire evaluators.

That is where they start rewarding time in, do you do concession stand work as well, will you do what you are told no matter how stupid it is, etc.

On that point I agree wholeheartedly with the bashers. The LLWS does not get the best umpires, but the best volunteers who happen to umpire.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by TBBlue
David,

The bigger problem is that after you are rated to move up...State, Region, whatever...it is up to a DA or Region bureaucrat as to who actually moves up from the approved list, not the actual umpire evaluators.

That is where they start rewarding time in, do you do concession stand work as well, will you do what you are told no matter how stupid it is, etc.

On that point I agree wholeheartedly with the bashers. The LLWS does not get the best umpires, but the best volunteers who happen to umpire.

Glad to hear from someone else that has seen the REAL LL world.

[Dave Hensley]

I believe there is one umpire from Florida this year, named Robert Stuart.

[David B]

Originally posted by TBBlue
David,
I appreciate the rephrase, and figured that's what you meant, but had to call out the blanket statement of no evals.

I honestly don't know if anyone from FL is on TV this year. We had a guy from my district there in 03. I believe I can umpire circles around this guy, but he said he had a blast dancing with Dugout. I just won't do that...ever.

The point of my original post was the fact that in the levels that move you up...Sectionals and States (in Florida)...the evaluation is identical to what the FHSAA uses. In the Big League Southern Region...NO TV...they used professional standards for the WS evals. It was very intense, and a fantastic learning experience for me.

However, once the guys get to Majors (12yo) Southern Region (TV game for finals), the way they called the games was totally different from what the criteria had been up to that point. Southern Regions gets evaluated for World Series (TV all the way through). I wasn't in the umpire room, so can't say for sure, but the way everything changed on the field, those guys are being coached to go over the top for TV presentation.

There is no way 12 different guys from all over the SE can have such horrid, yet similar mechanics at the same time, unless that is what they were told to do. That is wrong and that is why these guys are Sooooo noticable when they screw up. Because of this, I forsee that I will never be on TV for LL because I'm not changing just for TV.

The bigger problem is that after you are rated to move up...State, Region, whatever...it is up to a DA or Region bureaucrat as to who actually moves up from the approved list, not the actual umpire evaluators.

That is where they start rewarding time in, do you do concession stand work as well, will you do what you are told no matter how stupid it is, etc.

On that point I agree wholeheartedly with the bashers. The LLWS does not get the best umpires, but the best volunteers who happen to umpire.

I recently called the Dixie Major World Series and we had a guy from Florida - he was very good and I enjoyed calling with him, he was from the Orlando area - a long trip for him from home.

I did notice also that Dixie had their WS on TV this weekend also, on ESPN2 and SportSouth - probably just regional coverage since Dixie is mostly in the south.

I watched a little and the umpires were average from what i gathered, but at least they weren't dancing with the clowns etc.,

Have a good day

Thanks
David

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by Tim C
So all you LL Kool-aide drinkers do you really think:

a) All obvious foul balls should be called out loud,

b) That plate umpires should to EACH hitter say, "Batter -up",

c) That you really need a game where ALL SIX umpires have indiclickercounters,

d) That after each have inning (or after every play when involved) a base needs brushing.

e) Let's digress to c): could there be any small diamond game that "needs" six umpires?

This all leaves LL up to great lanes of criticism.

Rightfully so I might add.

T

It seems to me that the job of an umpire is to:[list=1][*] Maintain control of the game[*] Adjudicate the game fairly according to the rules[/list=1]None of these criticisms seem to point directly to a problem in achieving these goals.

I know that you all have a sense of the style that you are advocating for, and this style serves you well, for the games that you officiate, in presenting yourself as an umpire that commands respect.

For the LLWS, though, it may be that a different style is permissible. And so, I'm not sure that your criticisms of the style (or decorum) of the LLWS umpires really reach to the heart of the matter.

LDUB thought he had an issue with the plate stance of one umpire, but a big dog convinced him that he may have had a good, though uncommon, stance. LDUB also thinks that some LLWS umpire may have called strikes early. I think that I've seen similar plate mechanics on the TV this year, and that is truly distressing, because it may lead to unfair calls. As far as I know, in all of this breast-beating, that is the only significant criticism of this year's LLWS umpires that actually matters in the games that are being played.

All of the other criticisms amount to variations on complaining about their uniform.

Personally, Tee, I don't violate your standards on any of a-e for my League's games, nor do I teach that my League's umpires should. (As the PU, on all foul balls I do use the "time" physical mechanic, even where it is an obvious foul. Is this acceptable to you?) I have been directed in tournaments to use mechanics that are not my personal own. Up until now, I have always found myself willing to comply with these requests. I don't believe that there are stone tablets with the one true umpire style that I should adhere to, and I'm not trying to impress any evaluators that would disagree with the TD's request. I have not yet been asked to adhere to a mechanic that would hamper my ability to control the game or officiate it fairly; that would be a different matter.

-LL

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by TBBlue

Hey LL,
If you know Ozzy personally, forgive my comments.

Whether you revolunteer is between you and your league/district. If they don't do what you think they should, don't go back. However, if your local group is decent, don't listen to any internet umpire tell you what you should do with your time and avocation. Make your own decision.

Thanks. You are correct. I have no intention of letting any other person at all make my decision on personal community service, but

• I'd love to see Ozzy say something more substantive than "LL sucks."
• I can actually imagine some possibly true statements about the overall organization that would turn me off LL. If a hint from Ozzy sets me straight, I'd be in his debt.

-LL

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

You are right. You cannot logically call someone bad because they do not want to move up. But you can call them unmotivated. Unmotivated people, over time, tend to become bad.

Peter,

I am strongly motivated to[list=1][*] Recruit and train the best volunteer umpires I can for our League.[*] Personally be the best umpire I can be when I'm on the field.[*] Be able to volunteer for the post-season tournaments in my area as I am able and as I am requested.[/list=1]That is the reason that I stick my internet neck out on this forum, buy the available resources on umpiring, and work with the best LL umpires I can.

I'm not sure yet that "wasting" my time doing non-LL games would actually affect these goals; you Real Umpires (tm) certainly haven't made that case, with your fixations on uniforms (which, except for my adjustable hat, I think I figured out on my own years ago) and tales of your co-working Smittys. I've read tales of pandering to coaches' prejudices in game-time decisions, putting up with inferior mechanics to get ahead in the association, and the all-to-familiar problem of working with partners who aren't motivated to avoid being bad.

There are associations in the area whose members have invited me to join. I have resisted so far since

• The list of problems I've seen with Real Umpires (tm) on the internet hasn't convinced me that I need the working experience.
• The pay is too low.

I think, though, that I should seriously consider more formal training in some way this year, so I may attend one of those associations' winter sessions. Then my problem will be to translate that training into the needs of a LL game.

-LL

[BigUmp56]

I'm not sure yet that "wasting" my time doing non-LL games would actually affect these goals; you Real Umpires (tm) certainly haven't made that case, with your fixations on uniforms (which, except for my adjustable hat, I think I figured out on my own years ago) and tales of your co-working Smittys. I've read tales of pandering to coaches' prejudices in game-time decisions, putting up with inferior mechanics to get ahead in the association, and the all-to-familiar problem of working with partners who aren't motivated to avoid being bad.

There are associations in the area whose members have invited me to join. I have resisted so far since

• The list of problems I've seen with Real Umpires (tm) on the internet hasn't convinced me that I need the working experience.
• The pay is too low.

I think, though, that I should seriously consider more formal training in some way this year, so I may attend one of those associations' winter sessions. Then my problem will be to translate that training into the needs of a LL game.

-LL [/B][/QUOTE]


LL,

I have a couple of questions for you.

1) How much "formal" training have you had?

2) Why would you feel that you should only "consider" more formal training?

Don't you think receiving all the training you can the best avenue to acheiving success on the field?

3) Just how long have you been umpiring?

I don't want to seem confrontational with you, but you come off as someone who has done everything and been everywhere.

I have called games in LL for years and I can assure you that I have never worked with an umpire without a sound background off formal training that was a competent official.

There are a myriad of issues that are addressed at a formal umpiring camp that you cannot replace by simply reading a manual. Far to many to list on this forum.

Simply walking on to a field with a nicely pressed uniform and good equipment does not make someone a competent umpire.

You may feel that you can maintain control of a game and adjudicate the rules accordingly with little or no formal training, but in all honesty, without a solid understanding of the unwritten rules of umpiring, you cannot.

I don't want to disparage your intent, as I feel it is laudable. I do feel however, that you may need to reconsider your position on formal training.



Tim.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by LilLeaguer
I am strongly motivated to recruit and train the best volunteer umpires I can for our League ...

I have resisted so far since the pay is too low.

So you work LL games for free, but the pay for working a HS game is too low? That dosen't make sense.

[LMan]

Originally posted by LDUB

So you work LL games for free, but the pay for working a HS game is too low? That dosen't make sense.

why it's obvious! LL is "for the kids"