Swinging and getting Hit

[UMP25]

Originally posted by GarthB

Take a pill Rich.

Even Dr. Phil has place he can go to get away from his work. Just because one offers to do something in one environment doesn't mean he wants to "take his work home."

As another exampler, some local LL umpires criticize me for not volunteering my umpiring. They claim I've given nothing back to the community. Apparently my 30 years of volunteer service for other youth activities, my parish and other non-profit groups is meaningless because it isn't LL.

I hear ya, GB. While I haven't been criticized recently for not volunteering to umpire, I feel that 28 years of working hard to reach the level I have reached is good enough for me. I don't begrudge anyone who volunteers to umpire, but those days are decades long gone for me. My time is just too valuable to do it.

[mrm21711]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
If the question bugs you - just don't participate in the thread.

Its not the question, it the "theme" the board is taking with all these coaches obviously asking about calls they feel they were "screwed" on in a recent game. Its "Official Forum" not "Official Forum for Coaches who question basic calls."

My $.02.

[Tim C]

I am sorry to see yet another website be taken over by coaches and Little League umpires.

The repercussions are yet to be seen . . .

HOWEVER, I will not be involved in a Little League site at any level.

That is my personal choice.

[chuckfan1]

LDUB:
The post a waste of time? To who? You? To the majority on the board? Yeah probably. But someone is looking to learn, get some information, whats wrong with that. Again, done like it, think its a waste, you got a choice. Hit your "back" button. Does it take that long to do that?
Your right as far as the rule book. Agreed. However, when one is unfamiliar (new official, coach, parent, player etc), even a thorough read of the rules can be hard to decipher. We all know the rule book, as written, is antiquated, and a difficult read, even for seasoned officials.
Plus, when I first began, I read and re-read the book. I devoured it. However, I often solicited the advice of "Big Dawg" officials, who helped me understand the letter of the law, and the understanding of the rule, and more importantly, the application.
You can read the rule, recite it verbatim, but sometimes all it takes is for someone who's "been there and done that" to give a simple play with the rule/play/sitch. Amazingly, many times that's the final piece of the puzzle, and it all comes together, quicker and clearer.
I'll be forever indebted to a couple guys (mentors) who took the time to explain rules, plays etc, that made it so much clearer. It helped cut down the learing curve for me. I still worked hard, and studied, but sometimes nothing can beat the words of wisdom, of experience, someone willing to "pass it on".
Hopefully someday, If Im annointed "Big Dawg" status, I will remember the guys who took the time on the field, over the phone, staying after games, posting on the net, to pass on to me, and I'll try to have same willing attitude.
Plus, a parent, coach, etc who asks a question, no matter how obvious we feel the inquiry is, I feel a responsibility to help and inform. They will take away from that short conversation (or post)some newly gained info, and some positive reaction to an official! Gee, what a few minutes of time will do!
Im not trying to chase him off the board. And you say I should thank him. I did acknowledge his "Big Dawg" status. And since he is one of the more consistent posters, I do appreciate that. He is one of the guys, as mentioned earlier, who Ive learned a great deal from. Again, forever indebted. When first starting out, this forum was/is invaluable.
Someone would post a play/sitch, and he, among all you others would respond, giving their take. I knew the rule, I had read the book. But when broken down by you guys who have fought the war, many times, and expalined it, it was like the clouds opening up, and angels singing. The written rule just became a clear picture. "I can see!"
Of course the best learning tool is experience, doing game after game after game. But the soldier (official) is oh-so more ready, after talking to a soldier who had already been there.
My goodness, of course we all want someone like him to post, to pass on his invaluable knowledge. As I want to keep reading from all of you.
But the substance of his posts, takes on less meaning every time he has to bash someone, make fun of someone etc. Or get in a pissing contest with another official. Geez, lets get over ourselves.
Only positive things can come out of answering a question for a player, parent, coach etc, in the right context.
Between innings explaining a dead ball strike to a parent? Wrong context.
Walking to the field, and a parent/coach/player asks you to explain the IFF, or a question here on the board? The right context.
Again, if you or anyone doesnt like the post, move on. Does it really take that long to click away??

[Kaliix]

Tee,
While I understand where you are coming from, your response is melodramatic.

Don't like the question, just don't read any further and waste your time. I read every new thread that comes on this board. Some don't interest me and I never look at them again. But sorting through them is part the price one pays for reading the forum. There hasn't been that many simple questions to merit the response you gave.

Ignore the post and move on, like everyone else here.

Oh, and don't go away either. Like alot of people here, I enjoy your posts, your experience and your insight.

Originally posted by Tim C
I am sorry to see yet another website be taken over by coaches and Little League umpires.

The repercussions are yet to be seen . . .

HOWEVER, I will not be involved in a Little League site at any level.

That is my personal choice.

[LMan]

Originally posted by mrm21711

Its not the question, it the "theme" the board is taking with all these coaches obviously asking about calls they feel they were "screwed" on in a recent game. Its "Official Forum" not "Official Forum for Coaches who question basic calls."

My $.02.

thats the nut of it. Theres a difference b/w honest questions NOT immediately obvious in the book(s) and, "I hated this call against my team in my last game and I want to pizznmoan/get backup/whatever from every internet board I can find." *Those* questions are for eTeamz.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Tee,
While I understand where you are coming from, your response is melodramatic.

Don't like the question, just don't read any further and waste your time. (snip)

Ignore the post and move on, like everyone else here.

It doesn't work. It's been tried on other boards, and it doesn't work.

Many of us were encouraged, even solicted to post to this site at it's inception because it was not a LL site and it was not a coaches' site. We had seen other sites transform from big boy umpiring sites to LL umpiring and coaches sites. When we ignored the LL and coaches posts they just multiplied to the point that one couldn't see past the clutter. It wasn' worth going there anymore to read the first paragraph of 75% of the threads and to find they didn't apply to umpiring baseball above T-ball or LL.

Umpire.org even added a "small diamond" page at their site to give those folks a place to go and to reduce the clutter at the other pages. Didn't work. LL posts still abound on all the other pages instead of the small diamond page.

Sleazeteamz(c) has a coaches site. You'd never know it.

I haven't posted at either board for four years or more.

Now, just as the Europeans couldn't be stopped from heading westward across the plains, the mountains and to the pacific, the drift of LL and coaching to Officialforum has increased and resembles the early stages of the take overs at the other boards.

I don't think we're being elitst. It just seems to some of us that with all the boards on the internet, one could escape being taken over by LL level posts.

[David B]

Originally posted by Tim C
I am sorry to see yet another website be taken over by coaches and Little League umpires.

The repercussions are yet to be seen . . .

HOWEVER, I will not be involved in a Little League site at any level.

That is my personal choice.

I have to agree. Having participated on many of the other boards for the last several years, its refreshing to read what umpires might be questioning about the rules.

It waste a lot of time dealing with obvious rules that anyone could look up in any rule book if they just would take the time.

And you can't just skip a thread, because you don't know what its about until you read and then many times there is more insight into the followup questions than are
contrived from the original post.

Thanks but that's why I don't so small ball anymore.

Thanks
David

[mcrowder]

Sleazteams's separate board for coaches does, at least, filter out the non-gameplay questions (My DD/son wants to play travel ball and all-stars... we live near the border of our district... which bat do you recommend for slaphitters... blah blah blah). We don't seem to have that problem here.

BUT! A simple FASQ with Frequently Asked Stupid Questions would be helpful in weeding out the "you wouldn't believe what happened in the game I was coaching" crap.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by chuckfan1
Plus, a parent, coach, etc who asks a question, no matter how obvious we feel the inquiry is, I feel a responsibility to help and inform. They will take away from that short conversation (or post)some newly gained info, and some positive reaction to an official! Gee, what a few minutes of time will do!

.....

Walking to the field, and a parent/coach/player asks you to explain the IFF, or a question here on the board? The right context.

You are totaly missing the point. This is the "Official Fourm." It is for sports officials to discuss the various aspects of officiating. It is not a place (at least it should not be) where uneducated coaches and fanboys come to ask simple rule questions.

Originally posted by chuckfan1
Again, if you or anyone doesnt like the post, move on. Does it really take that long to click away??

Once again you are missing the point. Read what Garth wrote.

Originally posted by GarthB
It (Ignoring posts) doesn't work. It's been tried on other boards, and it doesn't work.

Many of us were encouraged, even solicted to post to this site at it's inception because it was not a LL site and it was not a coaches' site. We had seen other sites transform from big boy umpiring sites to LL umpiring and coaches sites. When we ignored the LL and coaches posts they just multiplied to the point that one couldn't see past the clutter. It wasn' worth going there anymore to read the first paragraph of 75% of the threads and to find they didn't apply to umpiring baseball above T-ball or LL.

[LMan]

Although offered earlier in sarcasm, I think the idea of a invitation-only 'senior' umpires section has merit. Have the moderator (s) issue invites to the proper contributors/audience and issue a password or whatever. The rest can ask eTeamz-level stuff as presently, and the 'senior' umpires can comment or not on those as they see fit.

I think there is a real need for a section where senior umpires can advise junior umpires who are *serious* about moving up and improving their skills without the attendant clutter and coach-speak, about the nuances in umpiring that this board's senior members only know from years of hard-won experience. Perhaps I am wrong.

I hate to think of the senior umpires here leaving in frustration. Yes, it can get rough at times but folks who whine about some senior-umpire comments must NEVER get evaluated on the field, or perhaps it is of the "No Umpire Left Behind" variety. My first evals were full of the terms "deficient," "sucks," "work on ...." and I did not take offense, I took it to heart and worked (work) to improve. I dont take offense at my evaluators' sometimes-salty commentary because I want to know what they know, and their 'war-stories' can save me from innumerable errors and misconceptions before I screw up in my next game. They've been there. I haven't, yet. Some places they've been, I don't want to go. But I will, if I don't listen.

I may never 'qualify' for the section described above but Ill keep trying, and above all I think its important to keep the priceless experience of senior umpires around. You can't get this from books...its the voice of hundreds or thousands of games and in many cases decades of game experience. So the medicine comes a bit tart and bitter sometimes. So. What?

I dont pretend to assume Im even a candidate to be even in the audience for such a group. But I know enough to know that the loss of our senior umpires would render this board meaningless.

[UmpJM]

I had intended to post the following under the "Restructuring" thread, but it has mysteriously "disappeared" while I was composing my thoughts. Some of my comments reference things that were said in that thread and may appear "out of context" on this thread.

Gentlemen,

When I first discovered this site (sometime around two years ago) a couple of things quickly became apparent to me.

1. This site is an incredibly valuable resource (possibly unmatched) for someone who is interested in improving their understanding of the proper application of the rules of baseball.

2. The individuals whose contributions make it such do not "suffer fools gladly".

Out of respect and appreciation for the experience and generosity of those who were willing to share their knowledge - and realizing that I would have been "out of my league" in this forum at the time - I refrained from posting until April of this year. Plus, I developed a sneaking suspicion that at least some of those who posted really didn't like coaches. I've seen enough to realize that they may have very good reasons for this.

When I did begin posting, I thought about whether or not I should reveal that I was a coach. Deciding to follow an "honesty is the best policy" approach, I laid my cards on the table through both my choice of a nickname and by occasionally including self-deprecating references to the fact that I was a coach in my posts. Some readers initially appeared skeptical that I was a coach.

When I do post on this forum, I put some effort into what I write. I am pretty sure that I have never initiated a thread on this forum. In my responses to what others have posted, I make a real effort to actually contribute something to the discussion and frequently offer rule references and cites from accepted interpretations in support of the position I take on a given question. I do this because it helps me improve my understanding of the rules and because I'm trying to "give something back" in helping others develop their understanding just as I was helped in developing my level of understanding.

I am also trying to contribute something that may be valuable to some readers. Every time you umpire a game, Managers are part of the equation. By posting, I'm offering you some insight into how a coach understands the rules, how he perceives your rulings and mechanics, and what types of things might lead him to appeal or protest a given ruling. This might help some of the umpires who come to this forum improve their game management capabilities.

I am fully sympathetic with those who lament the dilution/pollution of this forum with questions that have been asked and answered a thousand times and could be fairly easily resolved with a little effort at research rather than imposing on the generosity of others. I also agree with those who suggest that mechanisms such as "FAQs" or a separate "Beginner's Forum" would do little to address the issue. Many of those who "barge in" with "stupid questions" would continue to do so even if those things did exist.

If I controlled this forum (which I don't), I would seriously consider doing two things:

1. Updating the "Terms of Use" to include a statement to the effect that those who post on this board are expected to have read the rules and have done some degree of "due diligence" in researching their question prior to posting on this board. There would be the traditional "I agree" checkbox required as part of the registration process necessary to post. In and of itself, this would obviously accomplish nothing. On to step 2.

2. Include a "rules test" as a part of the registration process - a fairly difficult one, but not ridiculously so. A "passing grade" would be required before the registrant would be authorized to post on the board. This would do a couple of things. First the "happened to be in the neighborhood" crowd wouldn't even take the time to complete the test and would just "bounce" to another website that turned up in their Google search. For those who did take the time to complete the test, it would provide a mechanism to weed out those who would be "in over their heads" on this board. I am quite confident that the membership of this board would be able to come up with a suitable test in a matter of hours (if not minutes) and it would be a trivial technical task to include the test as part of the registration process.

Now those who do control this board may consider increasing registrations a higher priority than "filtering" potential registrants who may be better suited to a different forum. Obviously, that is entirely their call. I merely offer the above as practical suggestions should they coincide with the wishes of the "owners" of this forum.

Some who have commented in this thread suggest that who posts is, in some sense, more important than what is said. I have a bit of a problem with this position, but I'm just a coach, so maybe I just don't understand.

Therefore, I have decided to leave the matter in your hands. If the majority of knowledgeable contributors to this board (I'm not going to "name names" because I wish to neither "damn with faint praise" nor "insult by inadvertant ommission") feel that my posts do not contribute to the forum, I will simply refrain from posting in the future and return to "lurking". Alternatively, I could change my nickname and avoid referring to the fact that I am a coach. Had I initially done so, I would venture to guess that none of you would have realized that I am a coach. Regardless, I will abide by the decision of the membership - from a sense of respect and gratitude rather than one of obligation. I await your decision.

JM

[mcrowder]

3 questions on this test:

1) When are the hands part of the bat?
2) In which of the following can the batter-runner try to advance to first (followed by typical D3K sitches)
3) When is Infield Fly in effect?

[LDUB]

Originally posted by CoachJM
Include a "rules test" as a part of the registration process - a fairly difficult one, but not ridiculously so. A "passing grade" would be required before the registrant would be authorized to post on the board. This would do a couple of things. First the "happened to be in the neighborhood" crowd wouldn't even take the time to complete the test and would just "bounce" to another website that turned up in their Google search. For those who did take the time to complete the test, it would provide a mechanism to weed out those who would be "in over their heads" on this board. I am quite confident that the membership of this board would be able to come up with a suitable test in a matter of hours (if not minutes) and it would be a trivial technical task to include the test as part of the registration process.

That is not a bad idea. The only problem is that on this website, when you register, you are able to post to boards about a variety of sports. If a rugby official wants to join the board, he should not have to take a baseball rules test. Possibly when one registers, he could be prompted to which forums he wishes to post too, and he could take a test regarding those specific sports. That might only be needed for the baseball forum, so mabye the test should be required before posting only for baseball.

I think that mabye the test, coupled with a waiting period before one can post, mabye 10 days or so after registering would also help out a lot. The waiting period whould greatly decrease the number of people who come here to post one simple question on the first day they register, and then never return. If they see that they can't post here for 10 days, they will likely take their post to eteamz. Any quality poster would not mind having to wait 10 days before posting in order to weed out the bad posts.

[Dave Hensley]

The lament about the proliferation of Little League umpires reminds me of the old joke about the guy who goes to a psychiatrist and says "Doc, you gotta help us. My brother thinks he's a chicken!" The doctor replies, "That's reflective of a serious mental disorder, you should bring him in to see me immediately." To which the man replies, "Well, I would Doc, but you see, we need the eggs!"

While I understand this "Official Forum" is free to use, it is, nonetheless, a part of Officiating.com which is a subscriber-supported, for-profit enterprise. Assuming the owners of Officiating.com are economically rational people, it would astound me to learn that they condoned or supported the idea of trying to run the Little League umpires off of this site.

Because, after all, they need the eggs.