Managers Arguing

[mcrowder]

Why is it that in baseball and softball, it is expected and tolerated that a coach leave his seat to argue with an official? It's not tolerated anywhere else, and serves absolutely no purpose. Basketball, it's a technical foul. Football, it's 15 yards.

I have no problem with a manager calling time to come discuss what he thought was a rule misinterpretation, or to clarify what the umpire saw if he thinks there may be a rule mis-interp.

I just don't see why there is ANY tolerance for a manager or coach coming onto the field (even if he called time) to discuss ANY judgement call.

Rules have changed to forbid arguing about balls and strikes --- why stop there. Any argument about a judgement call should be an ejection.

[Tim C]

I have a column coming to the paid side of this webpage that talks about that exact issue.

Tune in later this month.

[David B]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Why is it that in baseball and softball, it is expected and tolerated that a coach leave his seat to argue with an official? It's not tolerated anywhere else, and serves absolutely no purpose. Basketball, it's a technical foul. Football, it's 15 yards.

I have no problem with a manager calling time to come discuss what he thought was a rule misinterpretation, or to clarify what the umpire saw if he thinks there may be a rule mis-interp.

I just don't see why there is ANY tolerance for a manager or coach coming onto the field (even if he called time) to discuss ANY judgement call.

Rules have changed to forbid arguing about balls and strikes --- why stop there. Any argument about a judgement call should be an ejection.

I agree totally. When we start umpiring usually we let coaches get away with a lot of stuff because we're learning.

As I've gotten older I find that I tolerate less and less from coaches.

Even now I will tell them in pregame if we have a rule interpretation we can discuss it, anything else we're not going to talk about it (very long)

Had a south state championship game Monday night and we had a coach from another area who stated the same stuff.

I listened for an inning and then we talked between innings as he came out, I didn't hear anymore. He wanted to start again later, but I simply walked with him as he returned to his box and we settled it once and for all.

What that told me was that his umpires had let him do that all season long and he thought that was the norm.

I look forward to Tee's column.

Thanks
David

[JRutledge]

It is simply customary in baseball. Each sport has things about their rules or expectations that allow or disallow certain things. Baseball is a lot different from football and basketball to begin with. There is a clock in those games and if the game is interrupted, that stops the clock and delays the game. Baseball already is in constant delay. Just remember, you are the person that can control that. If the coach is out of line, you have the tools to take care of that situation. Most of us are not Major League umpires and would not take the kind of things that those umpires do. I know I have never had a coach go off like I see Lou Pinella do (or with any other umpire for that matter).

Peace

[bellsjc]

Baseball is much different than any other sport. That's what makes it so great. I have no problem with coaches asking questions or expressing themeselves when they don't agree with my calls. I have been fortunate in that I usually don't get much from coaches, players, or fans. I think it not only has to do with my ability as an umpire, but also the additude I take into and throughout the game. I umpire because I enjoy baseball. I am to old to play, so I am involved as an umpire. I actually have fun doing the games. Well most of the time. I also try to be as invisible as possible. Some umpires think everyone is at the games to see them instead of the players. I bring a mind set to the games to hustle my butt off and give the two teams the best I have to offer. If the catchers are doing a good job, I hustle back to the backstop to chase the foul backs after giving a new ball to the catcher. I run back to my position immediately after calling a close play not giving the player or coach an opportunity to say something they shouldn't. If they do say something, I usually don't hear it because I am back where I belong. I don't hang arround and invite an argument. When I hear something from a fan, I just either pretend not to hear it or just give them a little smile. Fans can say anything they want, I couldn't care less. Some umpires are so obssessed with projecting their authority that they make themselves the focus of the game. Don't get me wrong, I will not take any crap from any player or coach, I have my share of ejections. I am not afraid to run anyone but it is usually for throwing equipment or malicious contact, not for arguing with me. I actually tell the coaches at the pregame conf. that if they do have a question, wait for the play to end then request time... I will be happy to answer any question they may have. I have found that when a coach hears that, they are going to approach me with respect because they know I respect them. In my opinion, if most umpires take this additude into games, with somewhat above average umpiring skills, they should have few problems with arguments. Baseball is different and that is why we love it so much. Just to prove how different it is... Baseball is the only sport I can think of that when on defense, you hold the ball. Think about that one!

[Tim C]

"I also try to be as invisible as possible."

------

"One of the really wrong theories about officiating is that a good official is one you never notice. The umpire who made that statement was probably a real poor official who tried to get his paycheck and hide behind his partners and stay out of trouble all his life. Control of the ballgame is the difference between umpires that show up for the players and the managers."

National League Umpire Bruce Froemming

[bellsjc]

My job as an umpire is to make sure teams follow the rules, call balls, strikes, and outs, and control the game. There is no question that the main purpose of the umpire is to maintain control of the game so I have to dissagree with the idea that an umpire can't control the game unless he makes himself the focus of every player, coach or fan. My use of the word invisible references invisible from wrong judgment, or wrong rules interpretation. The only way I want to be noticed is when someone says... "Good call blue". After a game is completed, I don't want anyone to walk away and the first thing they say is... "That Ump was horible!" If the umpires have a good game... no one mentions the umpires. That is what I mean by being invisible. Invisible from criticism. Have you ever heard anyone ever say "Man that ump was terrible! Had no idea on the strike zone and kicked three plays at the plate... but man he sure controled the game."

[David B]

Originally posted by bellsjc
My job as an umpire is to make sure teams follow the rules, call balls, strikes, and outs, and control the game. There is no question that the main purpose of the umpire is to maintain control of the game so I have to dissagree with the idea that an umpire can't control the game unless he makes himself the focus of every player, coach or fan. My use of the word invisible references invisible from wrong judgment, or wrong rules interpretation. The only way I want to be noticed is when someone says... "Good call blue". After a game is completed, I don't want anyone to walk away and the first thing they say is... "That Ump was horible!" If the umpires have a good game... no one mentions the umpires. That is what I mean by being invisible. Invisible from criticism. Have you ever heard anyone ever say "Man that ump was terrible! Had no idea on the strike zone and kicked three plays at the plate... but man he sure controled the game."

just had that happen recently.

The entire first five innings all I heard was how terrible i was, the strike zone was inconsistent, my BU had missed a call at 2nd (according to them) and blew a pickoff move.

Of course this was all when the team was losing.

10 runs in two innings and after the game, the coach told us what a great job we did. (g)

Translated to mean "thanks for not throwing me out of the game during the first part of the game"

Ain't baseball grand.

Thanks
David

[mcrowder]

"Good Game Blue" usually means there didn't happen to be any close plays that went against the speaker.

"That ump was horrible" usually means there were close plays that went against the speaker.

You can work a game where there are very few close plays - invariably, this means you called a great game, and everyone loves you.

You can work a game where there are close plays every inning. Half go one way, Half go the other - doesn't matter which go what way, whoever they go against is going to think you suck.

You can work a game where there is exactly one close play - and it is the last play of the game. Again - doesn't matter which way you call or whether you are right or wrong... half of the fans will think you suck.

I'm sure you've heard complaints about a call on a close one, and your first (unverbalized) thought is, "Moron - I was 3 feet away, you were 60 feet away. How would you know if that was a good call or not?" Now --- when you hear compliments about a call on a close one, your first (unverbalized) thought should still be, "Moron - I was 3 feet away, you were 60 feet away. How would you know if that was a good call or not?"

[stmaryrams]

Originally posted by mcrowder
"Good Game Blue" usually means there didn't happen to be any close plays that went against the speaker.

"That ump was horrible" usually means there were close plays that went against the speaker.

You can work a game where there are very few close plays - invariably, this means you called a great game, and everyone loves you.

You can work a game where there are close plays every inning. Half go one way, Half go the other - doesn't matter which go what way, whoever they go against is going to think you suck.

You can work a game where there is exactly one close play - and it is the last play of the game. Again - doesn't matter which way you call or whether you are right or wrong... half of the fans will think you suck.

I'm sure you've heard complaints about a call on a close one, and your first (unverbalized) thought is, "Moron - I was 3 feet away, you were 60 feet away. How would you know if that was a good call or not?" Now --- when you hear compliments about a call on a close one, your first (unverbalized) thought should still be, "Moron - I was 3 feet away, you were 60 feet away. How would you know if that was a good call or not?"

Remember we are all human and can make mistakes, even if you are 3 feet away. Sometimes the 12 foot angle is different and potentially better due to other base runners or a player moving into the way at the last minute.

I applaud an official working hard, getting into position and being consistant with the strike zone. I am not like the size but if it's a strike for my team and a strike for the others, I don't care. At least I can tell my players to be aware that the PU is calling a low or high strike and don't be caught looking at strike three.

[Jay R]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Why is it that in baseball and softball, it is expected and tolerated that a coach leave his seat to argue with an official? It's not tolerated anywhere else, and serves absolutely no purpose. Basketball, it's a technical foul. Football, it's 15 yards.

I have no problem with a manager calling time to come discuss what he thought was a rule misinterpretation, or to clarify what the umpire saw if he thinks there may be a rule mis-interp.

I just don't see why there is ANY tolerance for a manager or coach coming onto the field (even if he called time) to discuss ANY judgement call.

Rules have changed to forbid arguing about balls and strikes --- why stop there. Any argument about a judgement call should be an ejection.

Tradition.

[TBBlue]

First pitch of second game of DH. Strike at the lower part of the knees. Visiting coach sez (loud enough to be complaining) "I can't complain about that one, because I want it the bottom half of this inning". They will always love you or hate you half the time.

[mbyron]

Wouldn't it be nice to hear a coach or spectator say:

"Blue, I was 100 feet away from all your calls, so you know better than I do whether you nailed them all. But your mechanics and positioning were perfect, your timing was great, and you got that rule about batter interference just right. Good game!"

[bellsjc]

Wouldn't it be great if we did hear that?! It is so "right on" that some one is going to be unhappy with our call on a close play. I got assigned at the last moment to a double header last night that determined who would take 1st place in the varsity division where I live. The second game would also determine who would make sectional playoffs. In the second game, I had the bases. I heard it from the fans three times. One on an appeal of a check swing, another on a play at third on a triple, and again on an appeal that the batter/runner missed second base. The appeal of the missed base actually came from the crowd not the coach. As the throw was comming in from the outfield as the batter/runner came in to third, the crowd started yelling "he missed second" so F6 fields the throw and steps on second. I was right on this play as I followed the batter/runner from position A all the way around the bases and he touched second exactly the way players are tought to. I could not understand why the crowd thought he missed the bag. Anyway, my point is there are some times when we make calls, hear it from the coaches or fans and say to ourselves, gee, did I botch that call. In other words, there are times that self doubt enters our minds. Last night, I had no doubt that my calls were correct. I had good positioning, had a good look at the plays, and know 100% that I made the correct calls, yet that is the most chirping I have heard all year. Guess someone is going to complain no matter what we do. That is the nature of our business.

[gsf23]

I think the big difference is the distance between the unpires and the managers in baseball/softball.

Genrally, in other sports, coaches will have an official within talking distance to discuss a call. Football has an official at each sideline that coaches can talk to. In basketball you have to report to the table so the coach is right there and can talk to you. In volleyball the floor official is right next to the benches. In those sports you can get an explanation without going out onto the field/court.

In baseball/softball though, you are a pretty good distance away from a manager and about the only way he can discuss a call is to come out onto the field. In all seriousness, how many of you would walk over to the dugout if a mananger yelled out at you to come over there so he could discuss that last call with you? I wouldn't think that too many of you would.