Dilemma

[mbyron]

"I tell "my partner" that he cannot appeal to me."
************************

You NEVER let partners appeal to you? Or just on this rotation? Or was that just to punish this guy?

Either way, it's a shame that the game had to suffer because you were upset.

[akalsey]

There's a number of reasons why you might go to your partner for help, and I'd make sure never again to work with a partner who refused to help out.

The guy has a bad angle, the coach asks him to ask you for some help, and although you had more information, you refused to provide it? Instead, how about tell him "Yes, I had a better angle on that play and I had him out." Then let him make up his mind what to do with that information.

It sounds like instead of treating him like your partner, you treated him as the competing umpire on the field.

[Rich]

Originally posted by akalsey
There's a number of reasons why you might go to your partner for help, and I'd make sure never again to work with a partner who refused to help out.

The guy has a bad angle, the coach asks him to ask you for some help, and although you had more information, you refused to provide it? Instead, how about tell him "Yes, I had a better angle on that play and I had him out." Then let him make up his mind what to do with that information.

It sounds like instead of treating him like your partner, you treated him as the competing umpire on the field.

We're talking about a simple play at third here, one the the BU should be standing in the perfect position for.

I'd be shocked if someone wanted "help" on this. If the ball beat the runner and the glove was in place, how could the BU miss this? We don't just call a runner safe just because we don't have the perfect view of runner sliding into the tag....

[Rich]

Originally posted by scyguy
game went fine last night. However, I worked with a guy who left alot to be desired. He had the dish for the varsity since he was contracted first. Zone was consistent, but rotation was frightening. I should of known when in pre-game he says that "I do whether is easy". What kind of response is that?? I told him about critical rotations and that if he was not there, then I will not be making the call (rotation up to third, etc). Thankfully it was a pitchers duel. Six total hits, 2-1 final.
Now in the JV game, he spent as much time in and around the dugout BSing, than where he was supposed to be. Every half inning was delayed because of his constant smooshing. Yeah, he knew the coaches and yes most exchanges ended with laughter, but my goodness, aren't we there to do a job?? Now, 2nd inning, less than two outs, R1 and R2, base hit, I take R2 into the plate, throw is cut off and play occurs at third. Once I saw R2 touch home, I moved into position for an overthrow at third (DBT). I see the slide is directly into the 3B glove. Kid is out. But, my "partner" has absolutely no position, he comes flying across and calls kid safe. He had no idea. OC starts yelling for him to appeal to me. I'm thinking surely he will ignore the request. Well, you got it, here he comes toward me. Let me say that I did see play (tag was on the home side of third) and the kid was out. I tell "my partner" that he cannot appeal to me. He says that he did not see it and only wanted to get it right. I told him that I would not comment on the play. DC then starts yelling at me that he knows I saw it and should overrule. I stare at coach but do not reply. Ball back in play, life goes on. I told him after the game that he should of NEVER come to me. I'm sure in some of his chattter sessions with the coaches after this event, he made himself "look innocent" but so be it. If coaches cannot recognize an umpire that is professional and working hard vs a guy who is "your best friend", then I will work elsewhere.

Flying across from where? Jeez, he started in the C position and on the hit should've drifted behind the mound. If he was watching the ball, he would've been able to get an angle on ANY throw to ANY base. Since you had a runner scoring, he had all the calls on the bases.

I would've let him come to me and talk, but I likely wouldn't have been looking very hard at third base -- I have other responsibilities.

[Tim C]

As you can see Rich this thread has progessed to the issue that many of us just don't understand.

The example that you comment on is an example of either terrible training or an umpire that doesn't care about training.

When scyguy's partner comes "flying" we see that there is little understanding on training by that umpire.

You and I don't get it. We take all opportunities at training seriously and we try to improve.

Other umpires do not.

I get short with "umpires" on webpages when they fail to follow basic mechanic rules or at least know when to hustle to make calls. I get short with umpires who would ask for "help" on a simple steal of a base call.

Many of our brethern are stuck with dregs that call themselves "umpires".

As Carl says, "Lah Me!"

[Lawrence_Dorsey]

Tim,

As I've said before, I've had more frustration with partners that "make up" mechanics than I can count. I recently had a partner making calls on routine outfield catches (catches that were clearly in the V) while I was in B and C. It scared me to the point that I went in and talked with him between innings. We had two catch/no catch calls and luckily we had one umpire make one call but I was waiting for trouble.

If someone who knows me is reading this post, they'll say "I remember Lawrence when he would go out from the middle of the infield or when he hustled all over the place to get in position". They would be correct. I did those things and more. It wasn't until about 1998 when I started seriously studying two-man mechanics. I've attended 2 clinics since then as well. I've also worked with better umpires who are none to shy to let me know where I needed to improve. I took their advice and ran with it (I certainly didn't brush it off and think they were nuts).

I take a lot of pride in trying to get better. I also take pride in trying to learn new aspects of umpiring. I am far from perfect and wouldn't pretend to be a "Big Dog".

What really chaps me is guys that don't want to learn or take the time and money to hone their skills. They look at umpiring as a check. As an example, we beg and plead each year (heck this year we fed everyone for free) to come to our Dixie Baseball meeting in March. We only had a handful of folks who took the time (it was only half a day on Saturday) to stay for the whole meeting. Guess who the guys are that get the big games?

I could go on and on...

Lawrence

[David B]

Originally posted by Tim C
As you can see Rich this thread has progessed to the issue that many of us just don't understand.

The example that you comment on is an example of either terrible training or an umpire that doesn't care about training.

When scyguy's partner comes "flying" we see that there is little understanding on training by that umpire.

You and I don't get it. We take all opportunities at training seriously and we try to improve.

Other umpires do not.

I get short with "umpires" on webpages when they fail to follow basic mechanic rules or at least know when to hustle to make calls. I get short with umpires who would ask for "help" on a simple steal of a base call.

Many of our brethern are stuck with dregs that call themselves "umpires".

As Carl says, "Lah Me!"

I agree with you Tim. Today had a game with two playoff bound teams and in first game I'm BU.

R2 and throw from F5 pulls F3 off the bag. I'm in B and move to get a good angle and he's a good foot off the bag.

Coach calls time and wants me to ask for help. I said coach, he's a foot off the bag and that's MY call.

Later in second game I'm PU and ball from LH F1 bounces way in front of plate and bounces behind RH BR.

I didn't see it hit him and ball bounces to screen, BR looks at me (he never moved) and said it hit me on the foot. I said "you're staying here I didn't see it hit you".
(I don't think it did hit him anyway, or he would have started for 1st)

Coach between innings walks up and says you could have at least asked your partner who was in B. I just smiled and said thanks for the suggestion coach.

Too many guys are asking for help all the time. Get in position and make a good call. (Sigh)

thanks
David

[Edited by David B on Apr 16th, 2005 at 07:48 PM]

[scyguy]

mbyron and akalsey,
get a clue!!!! your comments are meaningless in this situation. I would never leave my partner out to dry, but on the other hand I will do my job and expect him to do his. If I would have overruled his decision a knowledgeable coach would of had every right to eat my lunch. Wake up, get a clue.

[mbyron]

Originally posted by scyguy
mbyron and akalsey,
get a clue!!!! your comments are meaningless in this situation. I would never leave my partner out to dry, but on the other hand I will do my job and expect him to do his. If I would have overruled his decision a knowledgeable coach would of had every right to eat my lunch. Wake up, get a clue.

Get a clue? You made a foolish statement and I asked a few questions because of how dumb it sounded. Your "explanation" above doesn't answer any of them.

I have all the clues about you that I need.

[scyguy]

let me see.... your comments vs Tim and Rich? I think Tim and Rich fully understood the situation. Of course my partner can appeal to me, if the situation dictates. If you think this was an appropreate time to appeal to your partner, then you don't have a clue about me. I am not saying I know it all becuase I am the first to admit that I don't. But surely you are not going to respond positively to a partner that appeals in this situation. Are you??? That would be dumb!

[mcrowder]

Scyguy, SURELY we ARE going to tell deficient ump what we saw when he was out of position. Some of us (myself included) might even phrase it that way... "Well, what I saw when you were out of position was that the runner was tagged out... it's now your call to change or not change."

And just as surely, we are going to call the assignor and make sure he's aware of this guy's horrific mechanics.

PLEASE don't penalize the players for the deficiencies of your partner, when you have the information to make things right.

From other posts you've made here, you strike me as a competent official and a consummate professional. But these comments that you intentionally hung partner out to dry at the expense of the players rub me the wrong way.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Scyguy, SURELY we ARE going to tell deficient ump what we saw when he was out of position. Some of us (myself included) might even phrase it that way... "Well, what I saw when you were out of position was that the runner was tagged out... it's now your call to change or not change."

And just as surely, we are going to call the assignor and make sure he's aware of this guy's horrific mechanics.

PLEASE don't penalize the players for the deficiencies of your partner, when you have the information to make things right.

From other posts you've made here, you strike me as a competent official and a consummate professional. But these comments that you intentionally hung partner out to dry at the expense of the players rub me the wrong way.

Hey MC, As plate umpire I have all touches and tags at third. Runners on first and second fly balls BU got the runner on second tagging and I got the play at third. Hits to the outfield I'm staying home and BU has everything. If he kicks the call at third how am I supposed to make a call from 80 or 90 feet away especially since he's in the C already? I'm all for getting things right but, the controversey is now my problem (this comment pertains to this play ONLY) and not his to resolve. Me I'd let the knuckle head on his own. How else is he going to learn? Keep in mind good calls and bad calls are just part of the game.

[scyguy]

MC I appreciate your comments, but I cannot reverse his call. This is not my place. He should NEVER had asked to begin with. I did my job. I respect your desire to get it right, but it would of been right if he would of done his job.

Lord Byron, I think you initially saw this as a way of piling on, then found that Rich and Tim agreed and you decided not to respond any further. This gives me a clue about you.

[mcrowder]

I would not expect you to reverse his call. It's his call. But if he asked you what you saw (regardless of his reasons for doing so), you should tell him. Then he makes the call about whether to reverse it. And he takes the heat, and handles the ejections as well.

Let me change your situation a bit.

You are working with the best umpire you've ever worked with. Always in position. Always hustles, and knows all the rules. This time, HE's your base umpire on the very same play. He makes the call, coach asks him to look for help, and for some reason, he DOES ask for what you saw.

Do you tell him, or do you give him the same "Talk to the hand" that you gave our crappy ump from the original story?

I suspect you would tell him what you saw, and let him decide how to handle.

If so, then it seems to me you are letting your contempt for this sub-par umpire affect the game in a negative manner. Don't get me wrong --- this crappy umpire needs to undergo some serious retraining, and your assignor needs to be made aware of his issues.

But don't let his crappiness penalize the kids in a sitch where you can make it right.

[mbyron]

Originally posted by scyguy
Lord Byron, I think you initially saw this as a way of piling on, then found that Rich and Tim agreed and you decided not to respond any further. This gives me a clue about you.

As I said before: YOU said something that was vague. I asked for clarification. Don't read that request in light of someone else's post.

The text of this thread does not support your inferences in any way. Find something better to post.

[Edited by mbyron on Apr 19th, 2005 at 09:39 PM]