Pickoffs from the windup?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by andrewm

It might not be good for the pros because they know the rules. But I promise you it will confuse the heck out of some 11 year olds and their coaches who don't know the rules. I'll wager that most youth coaches teach their baserunners to break for 2B as soon as the pitcher moves his free foot from the windup. In that case, they'll be picked clean every time.

Granted, once an opposing team sees this, the novelty will wear off. But, if we save it to a crucial point in the game, it's an easy out. [/B]

As you suggested earlier, there may be some umpires working your games that aren't up on this either.

[tarheelcoach]

My 13u travel team and also my middle school team both will use this type of move once a game. Since very few teams have ever seen us before, we can usually get a runner once with it. Very simply, the first time a runner gets on first, the pitcher will stand on the rubber in the windup. Then, he steps back with his left foot. Most runners will then take off assuming he is going to pitch. Our pitcher will then step completely off the mound and get the runner in a rundown.
Very effective at the middle school level when you still have inexperienced runners (and coaches).

Teaches them a lesson!

[3appleshigh]

Am I the only one who has a balk on that last post, If they step back with left foot off the rubber, they are pitching now. They can disengage generally with Right foot first (righty pitcher), dropping the hands, they can step directly toward the base, and if it is first must throw, and they can pitch. What you discribed to me sounds like a balk.

Remember must step directly at the base, back would be toward 2nd, someone better be there, and if you stepped back, I don't think I 'd by that as directly toward the bag even if someone was there. I need to know you are not pitching, so a step toward second would turn your body toward that bag. Otherwise, I got a balk. If you step directly toward first and pause, i got a balk. If you stepbackwards and pause (with left first) I got a balk. If you step back with left to disengage, i got a balk (unless your a lefty) This is not a simple move and there are way more ways to balk than do it right, this is why most people step off properly.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by tarheelcoach
My 13u travel team and also my middle school team both will use this type of move once a game. Since very few teams have ever seen us before, we can usually get a runner once with it. Very simply, the first time a runner gets on first, the pitcher will stand on the rubber in the windup. Then, he steps back with his left foot. Most runners will then take off assuming he is going to pitch. Our pitcher will then step completely off the mound and get the runner in a rundown.
Very effective at the middle school level when you still have inexperienced runners (and coaches).

Teaches them a lesson!

BALK!!!!!

(assuming a RHP)

Do these games have umpires?

[DG]

Originally posted by 3appleshigh
Am I the only one who has a balk on that last post, If they step back with left foot off the rubber, they are pitching now. They can disengage generally with Right foot first (righty pitcher), dropping the hands, they can step directly toward the base, and if it is first must throw, and they can pitch. What you discribed to me sounds like a balk.

Remember must step directly at the base, back would be toward 2nd, someone better be there, and if you stepped back, I don't think I 'd by that as directly toward the bag even if someone was there. I need to know you are not pitching, so a step toward second would turn your body toward that bag. Otherwise, I got a balk. If you step directly toward first and pause, i got a balk. If you stepbackwards and pause (with left first) I got a balk. If you step back with left to disengage, i got a balk (unless your a lefty) This is not a simple move and there are way more ways to balk than do it right, this is why most people step off properly.

No, you are just the first to pounce on this. If a right handed pitcher steps back with his left foot and does not complete the pitching motion with a pitch he has balked. If a right handed batter has his hands together in front and raises them (simulating pitch) while stepping back with his right foot he has balked. If a right handed pitcher standing on the rubber with both feet were to step directly to 1st and throw this would not be a balk in OBR. You don't see this move in higher levels because it would never work. At 11 year old level it might work, but coach should have rule book in hand to discuss with the umpires who may not know the rule, and you still may not win. Best to teach the players how to pitch from the set and forget about this.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by tarheelcoach
Very effective at the middle school level when you still have inexperienced runners (and coaches).

Teaches them a lesson!

And umpires, SHAME ON THEM. They let that go, you might as well try having them start their motion take a step back and throw to first.

[gruberted]

I'm lefty and use my opposite foot to pick off. Do I have to breka my hands because I go in a motion and then throw over?

[DG]

Originally posted by gruberted
I'm lefty and use my opposite foot to pick off. Do I have to breka my hands because I go in a motion and then throw over?

If you are talking about making a throw to 1b from the windup as a lefty, this would be a very difficult move to actually pick anyone off. Theoretically, you could step with your left foot toward 1b and then throw with your left and it would look like a weak throw. If you make any motion that makes it look like you are going to pitch you should pitch.

[gruberted]

I meant third base. I set up in the windup step off with my opposite foot and go in a "pretend" motion. Then I would throw over to first base. I would do the same thing toward third.

Is it a balk?

[GarthB]

Obviously we need more information, but if your "pretend" motion simulates your pitching motion, and you threw to a base...we'd have a balk.

Read OBR 8.01 and 8.05

[gruberted]

Even though I step off with the opposite foot?

[andrewm]

Originally posted by DG
At 11 year old level it might work, but coach should have rule book in hand to discuss with the umpires who may not know the rule, and you still may not win. Best to teach the players how to pitch from the set and forget about this. [/B]

They have been taught to pitch from the stretch with runners on. As has every other team around here that we've played or seen. That's kinda the point. We could run a set play from the windup in a crucial situation and get an easy out. Have the pitcher act like he forgot there was a runner on. Put him in the windup then call a pickoff play.

My guess is the umpire would probably call a balk. But, I plan on talking to a few umps in our tournament this weekend prior to the game. If we discuss it beforehand, hopefully we get the call if executed correctly.

[DG]

Originally posted by gruberted
Even though I step off with the opposite foot?

If you were in the windup position, and you stepped with your right foot towards 3b and feinted a throw you could then turn to 1b and throw, assuming your left foot disengaged the rubber during the feint to 3b. If you made any motion with your hands that looked like you were starting your throwing motion, and then stepped towards 3b you balked.

[cbfoulds]

Couple of thoughts:

1) The question "does this apply to FED" also reveals why a lot of youth ball coaches and players [and some umps] are shocked when they do see a properly-executed pick from the wind-up. Folk get used to the FED rule that F1 can't pick from the WU, and forget the BRD when they leave FEDlandia at the end of the school year.

2) And for those "you don't see this/ it won't work @ higher levels": uhh, I don't know about that. Did a Legion District Tourney last year and one pitcher picked two guys absolutely clean out of their sneakers in sucessive innings. Had to explain to the coach that in non-FED ball, a pick from the windup is perfectly legal: he'd never seen it done. Have to admit it was the first time I'd ever seen it attempted: fortunately my "HUH, what was that??!??" reaction forced/ permitted me to replay what I saw and to recall that this was not a HS game; and kept me silent long enough to make the correct non-call.

[David Emerling]

Here's a pickoff from the windup that my son executed from the windup position last season. This is a 13U team.

The situation was R2 and R3.

We had a comfortable lead late in the game and he was pitching from the windup position as we were mostly showing defensive indifference at this point.

But R2 was taking a ridiculously large lead. He was taking one of those "in your face" leadoffs.

So, we decided to make an example of this young man ... on principle.

If you watch the video closely, you can see our catcher signal the pickoff maneuver.

The BU called the R2 out, but the PU called it balk claiming, "He didn't step off, coach." This was a game played under OBR rules (USSSA). The PU called mostly high school games and was one of those umpires who only bothers learning ONE set of rule ... FED.

I informed him that the pitcher didn't need to step off. He finally agreed but I didn't feel the need to push the issue and embarrass him since it was pointless. He was wrong and apologetic.

Here's the maneuver: http://www.eteamz.com/HoustonHS/vide...up_pickoff.mov

David Emerling
Memphis, TN