NCAA rules test

[Clyde]

Thanks for the pleasure of reading here the last four years or so. I joined when I found this place four years ago but I think that this is my first post. I was able to find my userid and password in my notebook.

Over on McGriffs baseball, there is a discussion which interests me greatly. I never posted there either but I want to bring the discussion over here because this is where most of the experts are. However, I remember how upset Brad got when someone copied something from somewhere else. I don't remember the details and I don't want to get someone's dander up on the first post. We have enough of that already.

The thread on McGriff's is entitled "Windy, can you pass this test." It is the NCAA rules test for this year. I am in my fifth year of umpiring and want to move up. That test is an a--kicker. I don't understand where some of the questions are going.

Would it be possible to move that discussion over here or could a few of the experts here go slumming and answer some of the questions over there.

Thanks in advance.

Clyde

[Sal Giaco]

I'm not a rules guru by far but I did take the test and if you had any questions, (other than the DH rule ) - I'm sure one of us here could clear somethings up for you.

[Clyde]

This may be a first. The answers to the first half of the test have been posted on McGriffs.

http://www.gmcgriff.com/discus/messa...tml?1106016591

How did McGriffs beat the experts here?

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by Clyde

How did McGriffs beat the experts here?

Simple, the experts here were tied up debating Third World Plays.

[dddunn3d]

That's a good one!

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by Bob Lyle

Simple, the experts here were tied up debating Third World Plays.

McGriffs is all about one-upmanship and name calling. The test was posted there to call the bluff of one of the frequent posters, not to gain information.

It then evolved a bit to posting a link to the answers.

[JJ]

If you've gone to the link to check your answers, be wary that they are correct. Case in point, #17. The author of the link says the ball is dead when it hits the runner, even though it has PASSED a fielder. I was taught according to the rule book, that once a batted ball passes a fielder and no other fielder has a chance to field it, if it hits a runner it will remain LIVE. The link author says he has verified his answers by submitting his test to the NCAA. I think either he missed something or the NCAA did on at least this question - your guess as to who is correct.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by JJ
If you've gone to the link to check your answers, be wary that they are correct. Case in point, #17. The author of the link says the ball is dead when it hits the runner, even though it has PASSED a fielder. I was taught according to the rule book, that once a batted ball passes a fielder and no other fielder has a chance to field it, if it hits a runner it will remain LIVE. The link author says he has verified his answers by submitting his test to the NCAA. I think either he missed something or the NCAA did on at least this question - your guess as to who is correct.

I haven't seen that thread (I've avoided the baseball side of that site since nearly the time the new format was introduced), but I have "the ball is dead" as one of my answers to #17, and I had it scored as "correct".

That said, I can't figure out what's wrong with some of the others I missed -- so I'm perfectly willing to accept that some of the answer keu is wrong.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by JJ
If you've gone to the link to check your answers, be wary that they are correct. Case in point, #17. The author of the link says the ball is dead when it hits the runner, even though it has PASSED a fielder. I was taught according to the rule book, that once a batted ball passes a fielder and no other fielder has a chance to field it, if it hits a runner it will remain LIVE. The link author says he has verified his answers by submitting his test to the NCAA. I think either he missed something or the NCAA did on at least this question - your guess as to who is correct.

I thought NCAA was parallel with OBR on this issue, in which case the ball would only remain alive if it passes through the legs of or within the immediate reach of the fielder, and hits the runner immediately back of the fielder, and no other fielder had a play on the ball. In any other circumstance that that, the ball is dead and the runner is out.

[JJ]

Hmmm....I still can't figure how that runner is out in #17 - the NCAA rule says the runner is out when he's hit by a batted ball before it "has touched or passed all infielders". Seems to me that if the first baseman is in and the second baseman is playing "up the middle", and the first baseman has to dive for a ball (which he misses) and THEN it hits the runner who started BEHIND the first baseman, that it HAS passed all the infielders.
Of course, the NCAA (and OBR, Dave?) may decide that MAYBE the ball hasn't passed all the infielders until it goes by the imaginary line in the dirt where they are each/all standing, even if they have no chance to make a play on the ball...
Am I way off base here???

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by JJ
Hmmm....I still can't figure how that runner is out in #17 - the NCAA rule says the runner is out when he's hit by a batted ball before it "has touched or passed all infielders". Seems to me that if the first baseman is in and the second baseman is playing "up the middle", and the first baseman has to dive for a ball (which he misses) and THEN it hits the runner who started BEHIND the first baseman, that it HAS passed all the infielders.
Of course, the NCAA (and OBR, Dave?) may decide that MAYBE the ball hasn't passed all the infielders until it goes by the imaginary line in the dirt where they are each/all standing, even if they have no chance to make a play on the ball...
Am I way off base here???

We need to know how the NCAA defines "passed" for purposes of the rule.

Dave Hensley posted what OBR uses.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by JJ
Hmmm....I still can't figure how that runner is out in #17 - the NCAA rule says the runner is out when he's hit by a batted ball before it "has touched or passed all infielders". Seems to me that if the first baseman is in and the second baseman is playing "up the middle", and the first baseman has to dive for a ball (which he misses) and THEN it hits the runner who started BEHIND the first baseman, that it HAS passed all the infielders.
Of course, the NCAA (and OBR, Dave?) may decide that MAYBE the ball hasn't passed all the infielders until it goes by the imaginary line in the dirt where they are each/all standing, even if they have no chance to make a play on the ball...
Am I way off base here???

I am confident of my explanation of the OBR interpretation of a runner hit by a batted ball, but I do not know the proper interpretation of the applicable NCAA rule. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of games I have umpired using NCAA rules, and I just faked it then.

[JJ]

So if the infield is in and a guy gets a base hit through the hole past the diving 3rd baseman and shortstop, but it hits the runner, the runner is out? If not, how does this differ from the NCAA case outlined - and where did you find the OBR ruling?

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by JJ
So if the infield is in and a guy gets a base hit through the hole past the diving 3rd baseman and shortstop, but it hits the runner, the runner is out? If not, how does this differ from the NCAA case outlined - and where did you find the OBR ruling?

The judgment to be made in your play is did the ball pass within the immediate reach of the fielder before hitting the runner immediately back of him. You are evaluating whether the runner had a reasonable chance to avoid being hit by the ball and failed. When the ball goes through a fielder's legs and then hits the runner right behind him, the runner is NOT out because the logic is that he didn't have a reasonable opportunity to avoid being hit, because the fielder should have fielded it. Same logic if the ball deflects off the fielder and then hits the runner, the runner is not out.

In all other cases of a runner hit by a batted ball, the runner is out. He has an obligation to avoid being hit. The idea that the runner is exempt if the ball has travelled a farther distance from homeplate than all infielders are stationed is known as the "string theory" and, for OBR, is an obsolete interpretation of the relevant rules, superceded by authoritative and official interpretation by what I call the "Jim Evans interpretation" in which "passes" is defined as "passes through the legs or within the immediate reach" of the fielder. The related idea that the runner is exempt when hit by a batted ball as long as no other infielders had a potential play on the ball is an incorrect interpretation of a fragment of the actual rule.

The best, most current source of confirmation of the OBR interpretation is contained in the MLB Umpire Manual, in section 6.4. Here's an example play from that section that illustrates the gist of the interpretation:

(5) Runners on first and second, both runners stealing. Batter shows bunt, the first and third
basemen move in, and the shortstop moves to cover third. The batter swings at the last minute
and hits a ground ball in the direction of the shortstop position. However, the shortstop has
moved to cover third base, and no one is in position to field the ball. The ground ball strikes the
runner advancing from second base.
Ruling: Runner from second is declared out for being struck by a batted ball. The batter-runner is
placed at first base. The ball is not considered to have gone through or by an infielder in this
play.

Hope this helps.

[mbyron]

What Dave has written is also what I have been taught. Runners must avoid being hit by a batted ball, even if the ball has passed all the infielders and no other infielder has a play on the ball. Runners are protected only when directly behind a fielder who misplays a ball, and I suspect it's the misplaying of the ball that protects them rather than the fact that they are behind a fielder.

One possible rationale for this interpretation is that the defense still has a right to make a play on a batted ball, even if that play will be made by an outfielder. Runners who make contact with batted balls thus hinder the defense's ability to play. The current interp is in line with a foundational idea of fairness that lies behind all the rules: let every player do his job. If the offense intentionally or negligently prevents the defense from doing its job, it should be penalized.