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Sun Feb 04, 2001, 09:42pm
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Moose,
Just want to say what I think and let the others spat. Too bad every little scenario or post turns into someone taking offense. Anyway, I would not seek to change call. You must suck it up. You had the lapse of judgement. You had the bad positioning. You had the hurried call. You had the poor mechanics. You had something but the right call (as so the manager and yourself admit). But I think that anyone who does not do there job out in the field is doing a worse injustice of putting the plate umpire on the spot like that. If you end up keeping the call, it looks to the fans and opposing manager that the PU either agreed with you because he is scared to overturn it or they think he wasn't paying attention (and they will let him have it since he is close to the stands). If you turn the call, then everyone thinks that it was the PU who gave you the info and they get on him for it. It just ain't right. He deserves better then to be drug into a lose-lose situation because someone (BU) erred. The worse he can get for you NOT going to him is the fans just question to themselves, "why didn't the BU ask him"? It has been my experience that some times BU get to accustomed to feeling that the PU has his back that he goes to him for every little thing that is questioned. Just my opinion Max 
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Sun Feb 04, 2001, 10:57pm
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Killing The Messenger
I think that the comments that say Bull Moose may have been in over his head tend to discourage any of us from admitting our mistakes. Sometimes we might not know the proper mechanics. Other times we may know the mechanics but execute poorly. We just have a bad day or perhaps just a bad call. I have done a lot of Connie Mack ball and I know the tougher games are regional tournaments or playoffs where one or both teams have no clue about an umpire's history, attitude or expereince. Thus they are much less tolerant or understanding. More is at stake as well.
My initial reaction was that this call was not one where the PU should be consulted. Yet part of me said my natural tendency if I completely missed a call would be to get help. Although this clearly is not the PU's call I wonder about Papa's admonition "...Certainly, the plate umpire doesn't have a clue at his distance. (He likely wasn't watching anyway.)" Partly as a result of FED ball's slide violation I would be more likely be watching the action at second albeit this is under OBR. Jim/NY
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Mon Feb 05, 2001, 01:13am
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It doesn't matter
It doesn't matter what you see behind the plate.
It can be clear as day that the fielder drops the ball. It doesn't matter. Once that runner is called out, he is out. This is not a correctable error. Go back to the scenario I mentioned in a previous post. Let's assume the fielder drops the ball, but then recovers after R1 arrives and throws the ball away (to first base), either in play or out of play. R1 is called out on the original play. The BR now tries to advance. He gets to 2nd or 3rd. NOW the offensive coach comes out. What do you do? Do you award bases to R1, awarding him what you THINK he would've gotten? This isn't spectator interference we're talking about here. Correcting the original bad call ISN'T making the right call. It's making the wrong call and then making another wrong call. And the plate umpire shouldn't have said, "What do you want?" He should've said, "What the h3ll do you want?" I agree entirely with Max. As the BU you just put the PU into a situation that isn't his to begin with and one he can't win, to boot. Rich
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Mon Feb 05, 2001, 02:14am
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Re: Killing The Messenger
Quote:
But for the record I must say, under oath, unequivacably: I WAS NOT in over my head. I intent to BE humble, but, boys, I am fully qualified and capably to handle THAT LEVEL. The purpose of the disclosure was to create a complete picture, and as a REASON that I chose (rightly or wrongly) to seek the counsel of "Crusty 20 year guy". I am newer at that level, yes. (I mean.. how many ML umps were first year last year.. when they biffed, did everyone cry, "Send them back to AA"). I biffed the call, big time. Meaning I GUESSED. I violated the defn of JUDGEMENT, which is correctly interpreting what you see. I had a neuron misfire. It could have easily happened to Mr. 20 year as well. (Like it does, anyway).
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Mon Feb 05, 2001, 11:28am
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True Confessions
After reading everyone's responses, I felt that I had to add my two cents in. I think that all of us at one time or another have made a bad call in similar circumstances. Unfortunately, your call happened in a championship game which added to your grief. Do I think that it was because the game is at a level too high for your experience? I can't answer that based on one blown call. Did you blow the call because of the pressure of the game or because of anticipating the play? I think that the important lesson here, which I think you learned, is to watch the play, make a determination and then make a call. Obviously, you anticipated a routine play that back fired on you. Experience here is a great teacher, and I bet that you will never make that same error again.
Have a good 2001 season. Regards Phil
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Tue Feb 06, 2001, 09:07am
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"But what is YOUR review of what I did"? Moose - True Confessions - Isn't that a magazine? Moose with the exception of yourself (Big Grin!), we are all human. With that said we are going to make mistakes. No matter how many clincis we attend, rules meetings etc. we will inevitably make a mistake. The problem is that an UMPIRES MISTAKE is Blown way out of proportion . You mentioned that the team went on to score 4 or 5 runs. Moose were on "the hill" giving up those runs? Were you in the field? You get my drift. Now when we are unsure of a call, the first thing to check is : Did the offense or defense "tip their hand". In other words is it obvious as to what the correct call is even though we are unsure. In your thread it appears this was not the case. Also, in upper ball, the kids are probably instructed not to "tip their hands". I know when I played even if I was out I would always give the appearance as though I were safe. Papa C listed those circumstances when we can change a call. Your thread doesn't appear to be one of those. Now what does this all mean? When it's OUR CALL right, wrong, or indifferent we must now "sell it" even though we are unsure. You call what you saw and "live with it". As you mentioned you do not need anybody to tell you what you did wrong as you did a fine job of this yourself. All one can do is learn so that we do not make the same mistake twice. In your example; you shouldn't have gone to your partner since this was not his call. The PU's responsibility on a DP is to watch for interference on the part of r1. The BU's responsibility is to call the out / safe at second and then turn and make the call at first. Somtimes we just have to "eat it". Remember the AlCS BOSOX / Yanks same thing - make the call and learn from it. What I find interesting is that we can make a bad call and F1 serves up a "Gopher" Ball and in a way he / she is off the hook because everyone is screaming about the play before. As they say - it comes with the territory. Pete Booth
__________________
Peter M. Booth
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Tue Feb 06, 2001, 03:52pm
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Holiness 1 Buff Emperor (et al) 0
[QUOTE]Originally posted by His High Holiness
Nothing undermines a whole association more than a big call that is blown in an important game. --------- So let me get this straight, says the JURY FOREMAN, who knows NOTHING about baseball or umpiring. The choices are, Make a MISTAKE, do not change the mistake, and allow TEAM A to be punished for your mistake or. Make a MISTAKE, correct the mistake, put the situation at a point that would accurately and exactly reflect a point in time in a parallel universe in which the mistake was not made.. IOW -> the end result is the CORRECT CALL. Mmmm.. let me think....
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Tue Feb 06, 2001, 08:13pm
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Peter, again you care not about the umpire but the mighty buck.
If I have to select umpires, I want the one who will make his calls and suck up the ones he blows. This Horsesh!t about get it right at all costs is wrong, wrong, wrong. Also, this will not help the Moose move up. It will do the exact opposite. I am the "Big Dawg" and the assignor for my association. I had someone who was in Moose's position (new to the level, but a good umpire) and had a similar play. He came looking for help, I told him to go away that he had the call. He tried to ask again. Well, he is not working our top level this season. Until he learns that part of umiring means making errors and sucking it up, he will NEVER be a good umpire - period. If I keep bailing him out, how will he learn? We had a situation in 1997, game 7 of the finals, 4 man crew, bottom of the 9th, visitors up by 2 runs. There is a play at first that U1 blew, giving the home team a runner (he even admitted he booted it). What a time to boot one! Well, of course the visitor's manager comes out and asks for him to get help. He sticks by his call. Well, next batter hits a 2-run home run (of course) and home team wins in 11 innings. A month later over a few beers, the visiting manager said he felt screwed by the call. However, he respected the fact that the umpire stood by his call. He knew U1 booted it, and was pissed. However, he said if he was umpiring, he would not have asked for help. he said that this stuff evens out, but that it still hurt. Well, this same umpire is still working playoffs and was scheduled for the plate for game 7 this year, but the series only went 6. While we don't have the coaches pick the umpires here, that coach wanted that umpire back on the diamond. Outside of DC, this attitude of please everyone don't cut it. This is baseball, not politics.
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Tue Feb 06, 2001, 08:22pm
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Respectfully, HHH, I do not agree with the quote.
A blown call may undermine the respect and confidence for an individual umpire, however it is unlikely to undermine any respect for the association. Further depending on the level of repect that was alreaady there for a particular official before the call, no loss of repsect may result at all. They may not like the call, but respect is still there. Players actions and thoughts are, for the most part, intense but short lived. I do not believe the association is on their minds. (Ever) --- Now, for the jury foreman. there are few things council may wish to point out before the jury renders their verdict. 1. Umpires decisions which involve judgement are final. No further arguement is to be entertained. Refer to Rule 9.02(a) of the OBR. Further officiating comes down to respect. Naturally that respect takes time and takes the confidences of the players in you ability to officate at a consistently high, and impartial level. With this respect comes a duty to get your calls right. As humans we make mistakes and as umpires we must LIVE AND LEARN from them. Nothing will cause a loss of respect quicker than to second guess yourself on a ball field and seeking Help. If you reverse a judgement call at the request of one manager, the next judgement call is going to followed by another request of and so on.... 2. Umpires decisions which appear to be in conflict with the rules may be appealed to the umpire making the apparent incorrect ruling. This umpire may seek council from his fellow umpires before rendering a final ruling, and granting or overturning the requested appeal. Refer to Rule 9.02(b,c) of the OBR. We live and die by our judgement calls and should strive to never have an appeal made against us.
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Tue Feb 06, 2001, 09:42pm
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My apologies...
Quote:
I am sorry that I let myself believe that what you really wanted was an honest appraisal of your actions. I am sorry that you now appear simply to be interested in self-justification. I am sorry that in order to feel good about your actions in this case you are willing to prostitute your craft to the weird and wacky ideas of HHH. I am sorry, most of all, that you are simply either unable or unwilling to understand that there is more to officiating baseball than simply "getting it right" every time. Finally, I am truly sorry that I credited you with a geniune desire to improve. And, Moose, you must believe me when I say that NO-ONE is more disappointed about this than I am. I have known you through the Internet for a LONG time, and I was never more disappointed in you than I am right now. One last word, despite your keeping score in the heading of your last post this is NOT a contest of egos. This is supposed to be about helping each other to become better officials. I despair that you will ever recognise that fact. Cheers.
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Wed Feb 07, 2001, 12:39am
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Doesn't seem you were really looking...
...for honest appraisal.
Seems you were looking for someone to agree with your eventual decision on the field. Next time, tell us that, and we'll all simply ignore you. Except for Peter, who doesn't understand that some of us would rather not umpire at all than ask our assignors how "they want it done." Rich
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Wed Feb 07, 2001, 12:44am
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I can't go to bed without commenting further.
HOW can you put it right in a parallel universe when the universe you are in doesn't permit you? HOW can you be consistent when doing this? What if there are intervening plays? Why is it so hard to understand that undoing the wrong call is NOT "making the right call." You had your chance at the "right call" and you f---ed it up. Getting calls right is supposed to be placed ahead of umpire dignity, but shouldn't be done AT THE EXPENSE of umpire dignity. Rich
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Wed Feb 07, 2001, 09:07am
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HHH
The air must be thick in Washington. Firsy you say fans/coaches/players forget reversed decision bot not blown calls. Either their memory is good or bad which is it? Secondly the coach you mention that has a particulary long memory should get a life. He is clearly the south end of a north bound horse. Seven years after WW II Germany was part of NATO, surely he can forgive and move on after seven years in the Fed league. Getting the call right the first time should be emphasized ..not after the fact... Last, we don't give the leaugues a choice in who they contraact out to its us or nobody(I'm Canadian as well)
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Wed Feb 07, 2001, 09:28am
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Quote:
On the other hand, whether an out occurs following a dropped ball on a force play (or at first base on the batter-runner) is umpire judgment: Was it a transfer? Did the fielder have control of the ball? Did he hold it long enough? Was his foot on the base? Was he close enough for a neighborhood "out"? Those are judgment decisions not connected to additional data.
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