True Confessions - Your Analysis and Eval?

[Rog]

Re: "some of us would rather not umpire at all than ask our assignors how "they want it done."
If some assigner tells me that this a game HAS to be officiated in such n' such a manner, you can bet that his phone will be ringing off the hook at end of that game, and it will probably be the last game I do for him, thankfully.

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
...for honest appraisal.

Seems you were looking for someone to agree with your eventual decision on the field.

Next time, tell us that, and we'll all simply ignore you.

Except for Peter, who doesn't understand that some of us would rather not umpire at all than ask our assignors how "they want it done."

Rich

[DDonnelly19]

A few years ago the association I was with had a contract to work a bunch of youth tournaments. Apparently the tourney directors became a little disenchanted with the frequency of ejections, especially by the more inexperienced umpires, and made their feelings known to my assignor. Fearing he may lose the contract, the assignor informed us before the start of a tournament that ejections were no longer allowed. This and other attempts to brownnose the TD's have resulted in 80% of the "quality" umpires leaving the association recently, myself included.

Now the assignor is in serious jeopardy because he can't provide quality officials for these tournaments, because nobody wants to work for him anymore. He put his business (he ran the umpire association for his own personal gain) ahead of umpire philosophy and it will cost him dearly. He tried to save a few extra bucks by bringing in cheaper umpires and not providing adequate training.

A business can't do a very good job of keeping customers happy if its employees aren't happy.

Dennis Donnelly

[Dan Gavin]

Carl I will agree with you. BUT did he hold the ball long enough?
that statment can get us into trouble with young umps. Please use the release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. Not criticing but sick of hearing did he have long enough? Dan

[Bfair]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warren Willson

I am truly sorry, Mike.

I am sorry that I let myself believe that what you really wanted was an honest appraisal of your actions.

I am sorry that you now appear simply to be interested in self-justification.

I am sorry that in order to feel good about your actions in this case you are willing to prostitute your craft to the weird and wacky ideas of HHH.

I am sorry, most of all, that you are simply either unable or unwilling to understand that there is more to officiating baseball than simply "getting it right" every time.

Finally, I am truly sorry that I credited you with a geniune desire to improve.

And, Moose, you must believe me when I say that NO-ONE is more disappointed about this than I am. I have known you through the Internet for a LONG time, and I was never more disappointed in you than I am right now.

One last word, despite your keeping score in the heading of your last post this is NOT a contest of egos. This is supposed to be about helping each other to become better officials. I despair that you will ever recognise that fact.
__________________________________________________ ____

Warren,

Your condescending attitude displayed in your post is not typical of you. I am so highly disappointed not in the fact that you see differently than some on the issue, but the manner in which you state it. What have you done in your time off, taken a correspondence course in righteousness? If so, you seem to be at the head of the class? Either that, or you have taken advice from the well practiced. Lighten up.

Just my opinion,

[PeteBooth]

"One other thing for wannabe assignors. Never compete for contracts on youth baseball. I define youth baseball as 15 and under. This is a take it or leave it proposition for the leagues. Any quality baseball/football/basketball association is trying to dump that stuff, not get more of it".

Peter I guess it depends upon where one lives. In my area the 13 - 16 yr. old Youth baseball has risen dramatically over the yrs. especially in the summer months. Yes we have Legion but it's very difficult keeping a 17 / 18 yr. old division alive - You know kids are working etc. and basically this group plays on weekends only.

Because of the Drug and alcohol problems prevelant in teens today, more and more parents are trying to pursuade their kids to join summer and even Fall Leagues. It keeps the kids off the streets and focused.

The Youth League in my area is known as The Hudson Valley Youth Association which sponsers divisions such as 14 / under; 16 / under and 18 / under. This association has grown like "wildfire" over a 2 - 3 yr span. Last year my assignor had over 800 games to assign during a 3 month span - June through August. So you can see plenty of ball.

Also, as in your area, our FEES are good. So while assignors in your area may want to dump the stuff, in my area it's an umpires "Bread and Butter". I know what you mean about LL as I have been a volunteer for 10 yrs. now and you can "Keep the Parents".

Pete Booth

[David B]

I don't think Warren is off base one bit.

The thread starts with Moose asking what other people thought about his situation and call.

When others have responded, Moose simply defends his position.

Now my position:

If you are a four year umpire, yes you are way over your head in a game with 17-18 year olds. That's HS age and up and the level of ball is very very brisk.

No matter how many games you may have called in four years (400 or so), there is still a learning curve that must be adhered to.

Last summer in State Dixie Tourneys with the same age group there were two very good umpires (four or five years in service) who made very bad calls on very easy plays simply because they have never had the situation happen and did not know how to respond to the coach.

One was BOO, and the other was an infield fly which was not called. For a veteran umpire, they have had this happen several times and they would be able to explain the call to the coach quickly and backed up with a rule and there would not be a problem.

Moose had a problem because he guessed. . A veteran umpire may have to guess on a call, but when explaining to the coach he would not make up something that did not happen to try and wiggle out of the call.

Sometimes the best thing is to admit, coach I may have missed the call, but that's what I saw and let's play ball.

Thanks
David



[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Warren Willson

I am truly sorry, Mike.

I am sorry that I let myself believe that what you really wanted was an honest appraisal of your actions.

I am sorry that you now appear simply to be interested in self-justification.

[Whowefoolin]

I rarely post, just read. But I fill so tempted... A couple things. Carl, when an official sees one of the 5 things to over turn a call, does he/she automatically take over the call and over-turn, or do they need to go to their partner and let them decide with the information he was given? When does the ump seeing the violation take over jurisdiction?

Also, as a business man, a can't think of baseball in the same way. The "customer is always right" can not apply here. Hey, if the customer doesn't like your product or service, let him go else where. There is plenty of customers out there to be had. But, you better make sure that you are confident you are giving your customer the best product. And who's job is that, the assignor? So if you have a product that fails, who put that product out there to fail? Who is setting up the umpire to fail? Who is doing the quality assurance checks that most businesses do? The assignor?

Now on the last note I have; everyone fails sometime or another. Even the smallest blunder seems huge at the time (if you take the game and your job serious and aim to improve). If the ump is dedicated enough he will make sure he never does that again. I can only see a few reasons why a major err would occur:

Lack of mental focus
Lack of training
Lack of good mechanics
Lack of desire
Lack of hustle

If someone notes any of these in an umpire, then that umpire should not be in the position of taking the "big games". Maybe they should be assigned more to lower practise games.

Now if someone happens to be in a "Big game" and blows a huge play that affects the outcome of our world, and they do not show any of the above symptoms, then lets suck it up and put it down as part of the game. Not every bad call happens at the proper time. It would not be intentional, it could happen to any crew, and finally, who gives a rats *** what a coach thinks about my product?! If I am the assignor and confident, then water off a ducks back.

Just a thought

Max

P.S. About the coach who never forgot about the blown call that cost his team the championship, I bet the other coach also remembers it in another way; that the umpire crew was the best, most professional, dedicated crew in the world! And you have their business for life.

[BellevueBlue]

1. Getting help and yielding to coaches demands for appeals in situations such as this is not taught in our association.

2. Imagine a very similar scenario where the plate umpire is wrong and the base umpire is right. Again, yielding to a coach's cry for an appeal the base ump goes to the plate ump. This time a correct call is changed to a bad call. Do you think some one might remember this?

3. Mistakes in judgement are unfortunate, we try to to limit them, but they happen. They are part of the game, always have been, always will be.

4. Mr. Holines implied that no one will remember Mr. B.J Moose getting help and changing the call but they would remember if he didn't. I disagree. Both coaches will remember that Mr. B.J.Moose bowed down to a cry to get help and he will hear that cry over and over. In the future he may even have an ejection or two over cries to get help that he would not have had had he not gotten help.

5. The sugar coated option presented by Mr. Holines is in reality a poison pill. It may taste good at first, but it will kill the career of anyone shooting to move up. Proper mechanics and procedure together with rules knowledge will advance one from B to A to D1 faster than a reputation for reversing calls.

BellevueBlue

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Dan Gavin
Carl I will agree with you. BUT did he hold the ball long enough?
that statment can get us into trouble with young umps. Please use the release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. Not criticing but sick of hearing did he have long enough? Dan

Dan: Let me make too quick points: (1) "Did he hold it long enough?" is exactly the point of the NCAA rule. See 2-Catch. (2) "Did he hold it long enough?" is vital on force plays (or at first on the batter-runner) at any level where the fielder has control of the ball (he did not take a throw) and is knocked loose from the ball by the runner.

Of course, on the ordinary high school or OBR field, where the fielder receives a throw for the out, holding the ball "long enough" is irrelevant, as you so rightly point out.

I was clearly running along too fast in my earlier post. I regret any confusion I may have caused.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Whowefoolin
I rarely post, just read. But I fill so tempted... A couple things. Carl, when an official sees one of the 5 things to over turn a call, does he/she automatically take over the call and over-turn, or do they need to go to their partner and let them decide with the information he was given? When does the ump seeing the violation take over jurisdiction?

Foolin: Thanks for nothing! It's an excellent question, one that always generates its own 50-post thread. Practice differs, depending on the crew, the level, the "infraction."

Here's the professional practice:

(1/2) "the dropped ball" and "over-the-fence" ball are easy. The umpire with additional information simply comes us and tells the responsible umpire what's what. It's seen most often in the "over-the-fence" ball.

(3) They also do that for misinterpreted rules. Rocky Roe called a balk because a pitcher threw from the rubber to unoccupied third base to appeal that a runner left too soon. Durwood Merrill popped over from first to correct that mistake -- without waiting to be asked.

(4) Two umpires at one base: That was "modeled" by John Kibler, Ed Vargo, and Al Barlick. Kibler (U2) and Vargo (U1) both show up at second. Kibler: "Out!" Vargo: "Safe!" Manager Alston to PU Barlick: "What the hell we gonna do?" Barlick: "It's John's base; we're going with that." "Out!" is was.

(5) Changing the call on a half swing, of course, is a complete no-brainer.

I recommend following the professional practice. The point: They deal in games where thousands of dollars are wagered; if it's good enough for the Mafia, it's good enough for me.

Lots of amateurs and green, pro-school graduates would never think of helping another umpire get a call changed, even when it's legal. "My call, my blunder!" "Umpire dignity." "I'm not messing in another umpire's business."

Poppy-cock: If the play is one of those where tradition sanctions an umpire getting/giving help, by all means do so. Good Lord: The guys in "The Show" do it all the time. Why can't we?

Foolin: Remember, though, we're getting help only when it's legal to do so.

[Warren Willson]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bfair

Your condescending attitude displayed in your post is not typical of you. I am so highly disappointed not in the fact that you see differently than some on the issue, but the manner in which you state it. What have you done in your time off, taken a correspondence course in righteousness? If so, you seem to be at the head of the class? Either that, or you have taken advice from the well practiced. Lighten up.

Steve,

Let me suggest to you, so as not to appear "condescending", that it is extremely difficult to READ an attitude from a text message and get it right!

The facts of this matter are that:

1. Moose asked his colleagues for a review of his actions in this game.

2. I and a number of others believed he was genuinely seeking our honest opinions on what he had done, and so we gave them.

3. The majority of those honest opinions were that he had done the wrong thing on several counts. Most chose to also add sound, constructive advice for a better way to handle the situation. I would expect nothing less of a colleague.

4. Only one opinion stated that in certain narrow circumstances Moose may have done the right thing.

5. Ignoring all of the opinions to the contrary, Moose then focused on that one opinion that he may have done the right thing and posted a 2-paragraph justification for his own actions. That's clearly self-justification.

6. Moose also titled that post with a headline that suggested his thread was in reality intended as a disguised point-scoring contest between two well-known personalities, and not a genuine spirit of enquiry in an effort to improve his game.

7. Moose and I go way back, and presuming on that acquaintance I expressed my disappointment in his attitude. I expected better of someone that I know from long experience is certainly capable of doing better. Please check the "sad" icon for a clearer indication of my mood when posting.

Now, Steve, the fact is that most of the posters in this thread responded constructively to what appeared to be a genuine request for advice and help from a fellow official. We were all clearly duped when it became apparent from his own post that what Moose really wanted was simply to have his actions endorsed. When he was underwhelmed in response, he focused on the only apparently supportive note and used it to launch a self-justification of his actions. If it is condescending to express sorrow and deep disappointment at such duplicity from a fellow official, especially one I have been acquainted with for so long, then I plead guilty with absolutely no apology.

Cheers,

[DDonnelly19]

I understand where you're coming from, Peter, and I have to endure some of it with my assignor. If I call a game the way he wants me to call it, whether it be changing calls, ignoring balks, or saying the hands are part of the bat, I'll probably end up getting better assignments FROM HIM.

However, advancing to higher levels of ball probably won't happen, because the assignors of those higher levels won't put up with that type of Mickey Mouse umpiring. I guess if you're happy with the level of ball you're calling now, and don't mind selling out to the demands of Smitty the Assignor and the ignorant league administrators, I won't stop you. If you want to advance your officiating career, you better start learning how to call a game the RIGHT way.

Dennis

[David B]

I don't think I've laughed out loud at a post in a long time.

Everyone knows that Peter calls in a very unusual environment, (he's in Washington DC area enough said)./
I have to admit, if I had to worry about how I was going to call a game and which set of rules that I was going to ignore today but I have to call in my game tomorrow, that I would just give it up.

I have a feeling that Mr Osborne may not be the umpire that he makes himself out to be in print.

I don't say that in spite, I just know that it's impossible to be a good umpire without calling the same way day in and out. There would be no consistency!

Peter may be able to get away with it because he's called in that area for quite some time and sadly he may be one of the better umpires in that area.

I would only suggest that speaks very badly of the rest of the umpires that work in his association.

I get the point of his post, but it just doesnt' work that way in the rest of the real world of umpiring. At least not in the areas that I have worked.

Thanks
David

Originally posted by His High Holiness

I know the right way. I learned a long time ago what the right and wrong ways are, and I adjust myself to each game that I work depending on the situation and depending on who I am working for. That is one of the characteristics of a good umpire. (I have been to pro school.) My assignor assigns NCAA Division I ball. It doesn't get any higher than that unless you have pro intentions. At 50, I am beyond that.

Peter [/B]

[David B]

Jim

You make an excellent point. Nearly all of the ball that I call is in the south and it is very high caliber ball.

When I was in TX it was the same and I have friends from OK to FL who call ball and it is very high caliber.

I guess that's why in the College WS and in our big tournaments where they bring in teams from the North and the West etc. the teams from the south dominate.

I do remember many years ago when I called College ball in TX that the teams from Michigan etc would come to play and most of them were playing their first games and it was April.

But I still don't buy the line that you have to please someone and his style of calling to move up the ladder.
If you are a good umpire you will move up. Now, there will be lots of average umpires who move up because they take the "company line" approach to umpiring, and I know that for a fact - I call with them 9 months of the year.

I ask myself over and over again, "how did they make it this far?" And to be honest, it makes me feel for the coaches and kids who are playing the game.

But that's another thread

Thanks
David

[Phil Vivenzio]

After reading/responding to 5 pages of response, I think that we all should think about "What is the definition of a good umpire?"

I read adaptable, consistent, love of game, for the money. I'm beginning to question, what is a good umpire. Do I piss off my assignor or keep my ethics? Do I overlook the rules in this league, but not in others? Do I do a good job in this league, but just go with the flow in others?

I don't buy any of that stuff, I call what I see regardless of the consequences. If my assignor gets a question about my games, I answer honestly. I can live with myself
because I don't have to guess what kind of umpire am I going to be today. I strive to be the best umpire that is possible, I study the rules, I constantly strive to improve my mechanics, I read everything that I can get my hands on about umpiring, I attend clinics,but I will not give up my integrity to do more games. I must be doing something right as I have umpired for 7 years now and I have more games available then I have the time to do.