True Confessions - Your Analysis and Eval?

[BJ Moose]

Reading CC exerpt from his new book makes me remember the biggest cluster boink I was involved with last year. So YOU BE THE JURY. This is simply a question of umpire mechanics, botched mechanics, and decisions on getting help, then what to do with it. Here is the story as it really happened.. YOUR JOB is evaluate what was done. Do you PRAISE the antlered one, or do you load up the 20 gauge?


Quick background.. I am a "mid tier" 4th year umpire with my association. I have 400 Assoc games, and maybe 40 or more at the level of THIS GAME.

I am assigned a game in the Connie Mack State Tourny, 17-18 year olds, very high level, all varsity players. I am teamed with a VET 20 year guy, D1 tier. (Highest). I'm told matter of factly I have bases.

Tight, good game, no problems, good work by both of us each end... now in the 6th inning....

R1, 1 out, grounder to F4.. I step, and turn with ball, and watch the DP try, the flip to F6. I might be thinking already about the relay, I'm "leaning" toward making my 3 step move toward first. I know I kept my eyes on the "play", but..

Anyway, the flip to SS, call "OUT" and halt my move toward first, the play breaks down, there is a scramble at bag, R1 has overslid, ball is on ground, F6 gets ball, legs and arms all over.

My mind is screaming OH CRAP!! I am not sure what just happened, obviously, F6 booted the relay, but did he drop on a transfer, or did he just muff it.. The fact is, I have NO IDEA. (Digression, I KNOW my mistake here, bad timing, too quick. But back to the reality). I make a split second decision (called a GUESS), and adamently go back to the play and announce and demonstrate, "Runners OUT, dropped on the TRANSFER!!" I was telling myself... pullleeeze be right about this.. I had a 50 50 shot.

Ooops. Time called, here comes 3b coach, the manager, he is talking wiht me on infield, he is hot, but reserved, "Mike, that was definitely not a Tranfer, he just dropped it, I don't think you had a good look at that, what did you see, etc"

I tell him matter of factly that I saw the ball dropped on a transfer attempt and the runner is going to be out.

"Mike, you can't let this happen, its too close, bla bla, would you please check with Zeke (PU), just ask him what he saw?" I look toward home and there is Zeke, standing in front of plate at military attention, mask at his side.

I'm thinking GODDAMN... "Stay here, " I tell coach and I walk toward plate. Zeke doesn't move. I get to him and he says, "What do you want?"

"Zeke, I will tell you, I confess to you now that my mind just did not register what happened there, and my call of OUT on transfer was a GUESS.. I have no idea. So I am going to ask you, Did you SEE the play, and if so what did you see?

"Mike, I saw everything, the SS just MISSED the relay, flubbed it, there was NO transfer!"

"This is too important, and I want this to be right. If that is the way it happened then I want it called that way, do you support this"

"Do what you think is right"

I went back out, announced that the Runner was SAFE, the ball was dropped at 2nd. OF COURSE there is a minutes long @#%$house from the OTHER side. NO body gets tossed. They deserved alot of rope.. I @#% up, so I stood and listened and let them have their say and they finally relented.

Finally, back to baseball, and of course this is crucial as the team at bat now scores 4 or 5 runs, takes the lead, and eventually wins.

I am, of course, told by the stands and others that I am a snake, dog, blind, idiot, etc etc as we leave.

But to both sides credit, we are NOT visited at our cars in parking lot, nothing more is said, just another game.

End of story. I won't skew your eval by saying what "Crusty" told me afterwards.

But what is YOUR review of what I did?

[Bfair]

Many may disagree, but I think you made the right decision to get the call right. I'm sure you learned a great lesson in slowing down your timing, too.

I think a newer attitude regarding getting help if it is necessary is permeating officiating of all sports---including baseball. I think the fans and coaches appreciate it. They may not want to admit to it immediately when they're not on the preferred end of the call, but they all saw the same play you and Zeke did. Some may have actually believed they saw the play the same as your original call, but I suspect most saw as Zeke did.

I happened to be in Zeke's position in a 5A HS playoff in Austin last May where my partner called a guy safe on pickoff at 2nd. The crowd in Cleveland saw the tag beat the runner. When partner came to me I told him I what I saw, but that I would support whatever call he went with. He turned around and reversed his call. Coach came out, got his 60 second chewin' on the umps, and went back in. Ass't Coach later admitted reversing call was right decision. Unorthodox manner, but the call was right !!

It took a whole lot of guts to make that reversal. I would rather see the official take the heat for making a right call than for making a wrong call. Those kids earned their way to where they were and only one team was movin' on. I would much rather it be determined by their good play vs. our wrong calls. That partner earned a bunch of my respect that day---although I don't know how he missed call to start with. However, we have all made mistakes.

The only thing I would add is I don't check partner if I feel absolutely certain of call I made. When I check partner, I tell him I will go with whatever he wants me to, but please don't go against me unless YOU ARE CERTAIN I missed it. Then I take whatever he says.........
These instances of "conferring" are relatively rare events also.

Just my opinion,

[Edited by Bfair on Feb 3rd, 2001 at 12:20 AM]

[JJ]

"I would rather see the official take the heat for making the right call than for making a wrong call" -

That's the best statement I've seen on this board in a year.
I'm glad it was supported by LOTS of "but be careful" - for every call that someone decides to change, even if it's changed to the right call, I flash back to that Cub's game where one of the base umpires overruled BOTH the plate guy and the third base guy and called it a homerun - which was the WRONG call. How does one justify that, and what happens to respect of the whole crew?

[GarthB]

No one has taken the heartless approach yet, so I guess it's my turn.

Heartless Comment Number one:

I don't believe that this is one of the calls that should be overturned in a two man system. As much as I will go for help on a swipe tag or pulled foot at first, (When I'm in C), I will not entertain a coach's appeal of my call at second like this.

Heartless comment Number Two:

It appears that perhaps you were rushed in your development and assignments. No one should call that level/important of a game who does not have the timing to avoid that kind of a sh@^ house. (nothing personal, fault the assignor)

Heartless Comment Number Three:

If I ever approached my UIC in a game and his first words were "What do you want?"I'd respond "Nothing" and turn back around. I think maybe he was trying to dissuade you from asking.

As much as I usually argue against the pro school mentality of "I'll get mine and you get yours, or get off the field and I'll get both" I do not believe this play should be open to review.

Garth

[Edited by GarthB on Feb 3rd, 2001 at 05:11 PM]

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by GarthB
No one has taken the heartless approach yet, so I guess it's my turn.

Heartless Comment Number one:

I don't believe that is one of the calls that should be overturned in a two man system. As much as I will go for help on a swipe tag or pulled foot at first, (When I'm in C), I will not entertain a coach's appeal of my call at second like that.

There's no need to go beyond Heartless Comment Number one. There are five calls where the umpires can legally change a decision:

1. two umpires make opposite calls on the same play;
2. a rule is misapplied;
3. a call of ball on a half swing is "appealed";
4. a call of foul/fair or home run/double on balls hit over the fence is questioned;
5. a fielder drops a ball on a tag called out and the calling umpire does not see the drop.

A dropped ball on a force out, a pulled foot on the batter-runner at first, a swipe tag on a runner: Those are calls that once made, stay made.

We must steel ourselves to the fact that we are going to make mistakes that cannot be rectified. In the enciting play of this thread, the umpire's bad timing resulted in .... Was it a bad call? Certainly, the plate umpire doesn't have a clue at his distance. (He likely wasn't watching anyway.)

An umpire can always CORRECT a call: "Safe! No, no, no, I mean Out! He's out. He's out!" He's going to get some frowns, you bet, but that's expected and the changed call is legal when the new call is part of the continuing action.

Here's what's not legal. Umpire: "He's out!" Coach: "Get some help!" Ump: "Ok, Smitty, what you got?" Smitty: "He's safe!" Ump: "Ok, he's safe!" Me (assignor): "Make a note to send Ump back to Little League."

[Edited by Carl Childress on Feb 3rd, 2001 at 05:14 PM]

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Hayes Davis

Truly a denigration on a lot of fine umpires that work hard to learn proper mechanics and rulings. Perhaps you meant to write "send ump back into retirement in Edinburg, TX" instead?

It would be an amazing response from anyone except you, Hayes. You "assume" it is a denigration of all Little League. In fact, it speaks only of the Little League in the area where that assignor lives: All volunteers, no consistent training, no clinics, one "umpire" assigned, another pitcked from the stands. Surely, you, as a professional Little League umpire, are familiar with that scenario.

I suggest you read my posts more carefully in the future.

By the way: You know what happens when you "assume." Right?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Hayes Davis:
Truly a denigration on a lot of fine umpires that work hard to learn proper mechanics and rulings

I guess we each read into posts what we want. I do not see "truly a denigration..."

Fact is most mid and upper level umpires began at LL level.

Where would you send an umpire who may have moved up to soon and needs more training? To a higher level? No, you re-assign him to a level at which he can more easily handle the games and work on improving.

Most LL umpires I have been associated with are not so defensive as to read negative comments into every reference of LL.

[Rich]

I think Garth's comments about the umpire not being in the right level of game is misplaced, and perhaps, irrelevant.

EVERYONE makes mistakes. Let's not get to the point where we start thinking that timing mistakes don't happen to the veterans. They do, especially when the veterans get lazy or get in a groove where they stop thinking about those fundamentals. Let's focus on what happened AFTER the mistake.

I wouldn't have changed this call either.

Once that call is made, it cannot be undone. What would've happened if the relay throw from F4 went out of play, or worse, went down the first base line. Do we divine afterwards where the umpire should place that runner who, suddenly, is not out? Do we award bases to a runner who was originally called out?

What's worse: Do we make our decision on whether to change the call based on the circumstances that follow?

Nope. Once out, always out. Hey: That goes for the swipe tag and the pulled foot, too. If the base umpire MAKES AN INITIAL CALL, then it's gonna stand, too. If an umpire wants help, he gets it BEFORE he makes the call.

Sometimes making the right call doesn't mean you undo the wrong call. Sort of like that old phrase: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Rich
------------------
Rich Fronheiser
Natick, MA

[GarthB]

You really had to reach for that one, Hayes, but, sorry, not going to be dragged into a pissing contest at this board..,.

Have a wonderful season.

[Carl Childress]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hayes Davis

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Since you are the assignor ["me"] mentioned in your post I can look forward to your continuing reports as to the progress of Little League umpires in the Edinburg, TX area since they will be receiving the VERY BEST instruction from Childress himself?

Hayes: When are you going to learn to read what I write. R E A D C A R E F U L L Y this time. I wrote: "...it speaks only of the Little League in the area where that assignor LIVES."

It does not say that I assign Little League. I don't. Please: I am a careful writer; I deserve careful readers. Right?

[Carl Childress]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hayes Davis

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Doi...lah me! Huh, huh, huh! Childress speak of LL program in Seattle, WA when he live in Edinburg, TX. Duh me, duh me, duh me.

Now have to believe Childress well versed in specific LL program he speaking of? NOT! Childress just making fun again.

Ding...light bulb go on.

Sorry: If your bulb was ever on, it just burned out. Go back to my first post, Hayes. It was a response to Garth, not Mike [name substituted on request]. Garth said Mike [name substituted on request] did a bad thing. I came along and never mentioned Mike's [name substituted on request] mistake, his post, or him.

In my post, completely separate from the play at second that Mike [name substituted on request] and Garth discussed, I explained how an umpire could correct a call and showed an instance when he should not change a call. I then said if I saw one of my umpires do that, I would send him to a lower level. Where I live. Where I assign. Where I work.

But, here you go, "assuming" I referred to Mike's [name substituted on request] post simply because I've dropped in on that thread. Gosh, Hayes, you're right about one thing anyway: I sure don't live in Seattle. Comprehension 101....

Here's the fact of it: You've been so intent on trying to show me up, you've just dug yourself a deeper and deeper hole.

Finally: Where did your pidgeon Chinese, Charlie Chan accent come from? That sounds rather ugly, doesn't it? I know associations I've visited in California where such nonsense would be viewed with great anger. I trust you will apologize to the Chinese-Americans who visit the Forum.

---

I deleted the names because of a complaint by the original poster.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Feb 5th, 2001 at 01:23 AM]

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by BJ Moose
--- [snip] ---

Quick background.. I am a "mid tier" 4th year umpire with my association. I have 400 Assoc games, and maybe 40 or more at the level of THIS GAME.

I am assigned a game in the Connie Mack State Tourny, 17-18 year olds, very high level, all varsity players. I am teamed with a VET 20 year guy, D1 tier. (Highest). I'm told matter of factly I have bases.

Tight, good game, no problems, good work by both of us each end... now in the 6th inning....

--- [snip] ---

But what is YOUR review of what I did?

I know I am taking a risk, here. I haven't posted in general discussion for a while and I see that others who have given you the opinions you asked for have been lambasted - but not by you. Nevertheless, ignoring the heat and the sniping, I believe the average reader is entitled to know how to handle this situation should it occur.

You did the wrong thing, Mike. There is no escaping that. And I am NOT talking about the missed call at 2nd. That can happen to anyone; usually when we are feeling way too confident and things are going along so well. It was a bad mistake, which you have honestly admitted. That's good. That is the 1st step to improving your game so that such mistakes become even rarer, and when they do occur you know better how to handle them.

From your post, here are the subsequent mistakes I believe you made:

1. When the coach/manager started to dispute your view of events, you should have nailed the discussion right there but you didn't. It may appear, in 20/20 hindsight, that his view of events was totally correct and yours was at best incorrect. Nevertheless, as has been pointed out already, having made the call you MUST NOT change it. Instead, you should have responded to the coach/manager in this fashion:

"Skip, I appreciate your input. If I had your view of events I might have called the play differently. As it stands I have made a judgement decision and the runner is out. If I have kicked the call in your view then I will work harder to get it right next time, but I cannot change this call and I cannot make up for any error. Let's play baseball."

What you have now achieved is to tell the coach/manager that you KNOW it is possible you were wrong, but having made the call it stands as a judgement decision. You can't change it now and you won't make it up later. End of story. If he wants to continue with the "debate" he is now arguing a judgement decision and liable to ejection. Suggest quietly that he might want to keep himself in the game and leave the diamond, if he decides to go that route.

2. You have made yourself out to be a liar in this coach/manager's eyes. You told him you "saw the ball dropped on a transfer attempt", and then finally made a decision which clearly makes that view IMPOSSIBLE! He cannot respect you after this. I understand what you were trying to achieve. I believe you wanted to give the coach/manager a plausible explanation for your call, in the hope he would accept that and leave. He didn't.

A better stategy is to turn the question back on the coach. When he says "What did you see, Mike" go back to him with "I believe I saw an out, Skip. What did you see?" There are many occasions when we make decisions of safe/out without actually having the proof positive in our minds. We might not see an actual tag, but we will have enough clues and cues that we can and should use to get the call right within the parameter that we didn't actually see the tag itself. We have to make a call as close as possible to what really happened. That's our job.

Don't lie by saying that you saw a particular action if you really didn't. If the whole action LOOKED like an out to you, however, saying that you believed you saw an out is a legitimate response. When the coach/manager then tells you what he saw, you have given him an opportunity to tell his side of the story and he will be less confrontational for that. Look to point 1 above for the dialogue that follows the airing of the coach/manager's view of events.

3. NEVER go to your partner for help AFTER you have made the call, no matter what the admonition from the coach/manager to do so. If the situation prevents you from getting help BEFORE you've made a call, then make your best call and live with it after that. This is YOUR call make. In this case YOU have already made that call. It cannot properly be changed afterwards, regardless of what your partner saw. Do NOT put your partner in the middle of your foul ups and hope he can get you out from under! That is totally unreasonable and unfair.

Your partner gave you the opportunity to back out, when he said "What do you want?" You should have taken it. Better still, you shouldn't have been there in the first place. If I had been your partner, I would have told you "Mike, I'm not going to make that call from 130 feet away. You have already made the call. Live with it. We can discuss it later, if you like." I'm NOT going to put myself in the middle of this situation, regardless of what I think I saw at that distance. If you are ever PU in this situation, my best advice is "don't pick up the shitty end of the stick".

Mike, this is one of those cases where umpire dignity IS more important than getting the call right. Your career progress, and the game itself, WILL survive the odd bad call. It is possible that your career progress may NOT survive poorly managing what follows. I hope it does.

I have it on good authority that you are a talented official on the diamond. Showing your willingness to expose yourself to criticism in order to improve is a good sign. If it is possible to do so, bite the bullet and apologise to this PU for putting him in this position. Tell him that you KNOW you handled it poorly and that you believe you can do better if the situation ever arises again. Give him an opportunity to learn to respect you all over again, by getting past this bad memory of you as an official. Five innings of good work were undone by this incident. Put it back in perspective for him and then move on.

Cheers,

Warren

[Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 4th, 2001 at 03:30 AM]

[Rog]

Aside from Warren's very astute observations, with which I concur, I'd be ever mindful of the guy with that old 10ga with 3" magnums.

Originally posted by Warren Willson

I know I am taking a risk, here. I haven't posted in general discussion for a while and I see that others who have given you the opinions you asked for have been lambasted - but not by you. Nevertheless, ignoring the heat and the sniping, I believe the average reader is entitled to know how to handle this situation should it occur.

You did the wrong thing, Mike. There is no escaping that. And I am NOT talking about the missed call at 2nd. That can happen to anyone; usually when we are feeling way too confident and things are going along so well. It was a bad mistake, which you have honestly admitted. That's good. That is the 1st step to improving your game so that such mistakes become even rarer, and when they do occur you know better how to handle them.

From your post, here are the subsequent mistakes I believe you made:

1. When the coach/manager started to dispute your view of events, you should have nailed the discussion right there but you didn't. It may appear, in 20/20 hindsight, that his view of events was totally correct and yours was at best incorrect. Nevertheless, as has been pointed out already, having made the call you MUST NOT change it. Instead, you should have responded to the coach/manager in this fashion:

"Skip, I appreciate your input. If I had your view of events I might have called the play differently. As it stands I have made a judgement decision and the runner is out. If I have kicked the call in your view then I will work harder to get it right next time, but I cannot change this call and I cannot make up for any error. Let's play baseball."

What you have now achieved is to tell the coach/manager that you KNOW it is possible you were wrong, but having made the call it stands as a judgement decision. You can't change it now and you won't make it up later. End of story. If he wants to continue with the "debate" he is now arguing a judgement decision and liable to ejection. Suggest quietly that he might want to keep himself in the game and leave the diamond, if he decides to go that route.

2. You have made yourself out to be a liar in this coach/manager's eyes. You told him you "saw the ball dropped on a transfer attempt", and then finally made a decision which clearly makes that view IMPOSSIBLE! He cannot respect you after this. I understand what you were trying to achieve. I believe you wanted to give the coach/manager a plausible explanation for your call, in the hope he would accept that and leave. He didn't.

A better stategy is to turn the question back on the coach. When he says "What did you see, Mike" go back to him with "I believe I saw an out, Skip. What did you see?" There are many occasions when we make decisions of safe/out without actually having the proof positive in our minds. We might not see an actual tag, but we will have enough clues and cues that we can and should use to get the call right within the parameter that we didn't actually see the tag itself. We have to make a call as close as possible to what really happened. That's our job.

Don't lie by saying that you saw a particular action if you really didn't. If the whole action LOOKED like an out to you, however, saying that you believed you saw an out is a legitimate response. When the coach/manager then tells you what he saw, you have given him an opportunity to tell his side of the story and he will be less confrontational for that. Look to point 1 above for the dialogue that follows the airing of the coach/manager's view of events.

3. NEVER go to your partner for help AFTER you have made the call, no matter what the admonition from the coach/manager to do so. If the situation prevents you from getting help BEFORE you've made a call, then make your best call and live with it after that. This is YOUR call make. In this case YOU have already made that call. It cannot properly be changed afterwards, regardless of what your partner saw. Do NOT put your partner in the middle of your foul ups and hope he can get you out from under! That is totally unreasonable and unfair.

Your partner gave you the opportunity to back out, when he said "What do you want?" You should have taken it. Better still, you shouldn't have been there in the first place. If I had been your partner, I would have told you "Mike, I'm not going to make that call from 130 feet away. You have already made the call. Live with it. We can discuss it later, if you like." I'm NOT going to put myself in the middle of this situation, regardless of what I think I saw at that distance. If you are ever PU in this situation, my best advice is "don't pick up the shitty end of the stick".

Mike, this is one of those cases where umpire dignity IS more important than getting the call right. Your career progress, and the game itself, WILL survive the odd bad call. It is possible that your career progress may NOT survive poorly managing what follows. I hope it does.

I have it on good authority that you are a talented official on the diamond. Showing your willingness to expose yourself to criticism in order to improve is a good sign. If it is possible to do so, bite the bullet and apologise to this PU for putting him in this position. Tell him that you KNOW you handled it poorly and that you believe you can do better if the situation ever arises again. Give him an opportunity to learn to respect you all over again, by getting past this bad memory of you as an official. Five innings of good work were undone by this incident. Put it back in perspective for him and then move on.

Cheers,

Warren

[Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 4th, 2001 at 03:30 AM]

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Hayes Davis
Warren,

It's a shame that such a quality response post has to start off with something like this. It seems that your recent Internet "meltdown" has left you with a tad bit of paranoia. Lighten up on yourself!

Mr Davis,

It is equally a shame that an admitted "quality response post" has to be mired by your jaundiced perspective of events. Like Mr Benham, I will not be drawn into your pointless contest. You persist in the foolhardy practice of ignoring the valuable bulk of posts in order to focus on a few words here or there that apparently offend your delicate sensitivities. Please take some of your own advice and lighten up! This board and its readers deserve better!

Cheers,

[Edited by Warren Willson on Feb 4th, 2001 at 02:57 PM]

[GarthB]

In addition to Rich Fronheiser's suggestion that the level of umpire was not relevant to this issue, I received an email inquiring if I had a problem with Seattle's BJ Moose.

Prior to responding to either, I re-read the original post and my reply.

My intent, and I am guilty for not making that clear, was to respond with my opinion of the behavior of the umpire within the stated situation, set-up and all. The set-up I was addressing in the original post was Moose's comment:

"Quick background.. I am a "mid tier" 4th year umpire with my association. I have 400 Assoc games, and maybe 40 or more at the level of THIS GAME. I am assigned a game in the Connie Mack State Tourny, 17-18 year olds, very high level, all varsity players. I am teamed with a VET 20 year guy, D1 tier. (Highest)."

I believed at the time that the author was saying that he was in over his head, and I replied accordingly.

I have no problem with Mr. Moose. I understand from mutual acquaintances, who I respect ,that he is a competent and credible umpire. My comments should have included a note that they were directed at umpire behavior, generically, and not necessarily at the Great Antlered (horny?)One.

In retrospect I should have made more clear some of the assumptions as well as some of the comments I made.

Otherwise, I stand by my post in that: 1. The timing of the call was uncharacteristic of calls made at beyond Varsity-Level championships, 2. The call is not one that should be subject to appeal and reversal, and 3. The posture and comments by the D1 plate man were probably a notice that he didn't want to get involved.

Garth

[Edited by GarthB on Feb 4th, 2001 at 09:58 PM]