Stealing signs

[Gee]

That's been a loooong divorce, you must have the big bucks. Good luck. G.

[chris s]

Originally posted by Gee
That's been a loooong divorce, you must have the big bucks. Good luck. G.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~

Actually.....she gets the bucks. Quite a bit of them!!!!! At least my new gal-pal has a great job and it is nice to fall in love again. Screw the rest!!!!!


Georgelucy @aol.com right??????

[email protected]



Catch ya later

[LDUB]

Originally posted by PeteBooth

As far as your comment regarding the invoking of 4.05 IMO you do not have a point. Your coach is CHEATING, the Other Coach is simply talking to his/her player. IMO that's a BIG difference, which is the reason we instruct one coach to the box and not the other.

Stealing signs is cheating? Let's check this out.

cheat ( P ) Pronunciation Key (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game:


So where is this rule which says that stealing signs is illegal?

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by LDUB

Originally posted by PeteBooth

Stealing signs is cheating? Let's check this out.

cheat ( P ) Pronunciation Key (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game:


So where is this rule which says that stealing signs is illegal?

OBR 9.01
(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.

No I'm not using 9.01c as a "crutch", but it is impossible to put in EVERY single rule.

As I mentioned, the game dictates how one is to umpire. Some-times we interject when there are rival teams and sometimes we let the game "play out". It all depends, but the bottom line is: If your coach is leaving the box SPECIFICALLY to steal signs, he is going back.

BTW in a FED game, I could have the Coach restricted or EJ'D. It's FED rule 3-3-1g

A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

committ ANY unsportsmanlike act to include but not limited to,

4. behavior in ANY manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

In Summary, there is no specific rule in an OBR based game to cover this, but in a FED game there is a SPECIFIC rule.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

"In Summary, there is no specific rule in an OBR based game to cover this, but in a FED game there is a SPECIFIC rule."

I don't see any such SPECIFIC rule in FED. Where is the language describing stealing signs as "not in accordance with the spirit of fair play"? You are still making a leap.

Obviously, in your mind, such behavior qualifies, but you are still intrpreting the rule to cover it. It is not specified.

In the minds of others it may be considered gamesmanship.

In the minds of still others it's just a prelude to a fastball in the ribs.

GB

[WindyCityBlue]

How can you prohibit a runner on second from stealing the sign and indicating what the pitch will be?

Stealing/Obtaining/Intercepting the signals had been around since the advent of the game. We can and should keep coachs from straying from their boxes in order to do this, but even in the Pros, the signals come from the dugout and can be interpreted by the opposing team. That is why many teams use fake signs and multiple signal givers. Use your head when you are out there and try not to borrow trouble.

Even if the batter glances back and "steals" the sign, he still has to hit the pitch. Finally, many catchers call pitch outs because they think that they've stolen the steal sign from the offense. Are you going to discipline him, as well? I'm just trying to keep you on your toes!

[orioles35]

You're exactly right, a runner giving the open-hand/fastball or closed-hand/curveball signal from 2nd base is stealing signals. And I'd bet in 95% of the cases, if it were being done in that manner OR in another manner where the opposing team would not catch on, it would continue and NOT be any fastballs in the ribs. In my example that started this thread, the 3B coach was VERBALLY telling the batter what was coming. In discussing preemptive umpiring, that's when I stepped in.

Whether I agree a coach should be doing it or not is really another story, but if it continued in THAT manner things quite honestly could get ugly.

[chris s]

Steal signs in B or C? Look at it this way, you don't get in trouble unless ya get caught, now punishment depends on PO'd coach/players. As an ump, till someone gets clocked, screw it. As we say in football.....advantage/disadvantage. One team has an upper hand.....lets play!!!!

As one poster said, he swipes signs, me too. Advantage ump.AND, anybody on the D that has a clue. D gets caught, oh well. Show me the "one in the ear" is intentional, now we got some tossin to do, smart ump knows what is up. EARS work real well......ya gonna hear a bit of chirping before......WAKE_UP!!!!!!

[WindyCityBlue]

Okay, who missed the last point of my post?

If you are going to penalize another coach or player for stealing the pitch signs then you'd better penalize the defensive players and coach for calling a pitch out when they've stolen the sign.

Yeah, I thought that would get a few minds churning.

[gsf23]

If signs are getting stolen then get a better set of signs. We spend practice time with out catcher teaching them how to hide the signs. He is taught to give a glance up at the batter to check if he is looking, a runner at seocnd and we automatically go to a second set of signs. We have five different sets that we use. It just amazes me how many teams will still give one sign with a runner on second. Signs deserve to be stolen if you are that ignorant.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by LDUB

If these are young kids, I would dust the plate, and tell him that the pitcher might throw at him if he keeps it up. But under normal circumstances, the players should know that they should not do that, there is no reason for me to tell them anything. If the batter wants to risk getting hit, then that is up to him.

[Edited by LDUB on Jul 29th, 2004 at 03:05 PM]

At higher levels, true, you may get a ball in your ear. It should be emphasized that throwing at hitters and brushing them back is actually an ART and SKILL that young pitchers do not typically understand or possess.

Seldom do you see a MLB pitcher, intending to hit a batter, throw at his head. They know how to hit a batter -or- simply brush him back and send a signal.

Young ballplayers aren't very good at either. If you tell a 12-yr-old pitcher to hit a batter, he may just as likely hit the batter in the head as throw a called strike.

Youth league coaches should NEVER instruct a pitcher to throw at a batter with the intent of hitting him - EVER! There is no violation so egregious that should ever require this.

Looking back at the catcher for the signal is so easily solved by the defense. All they have to do is give the signals as if there is a runner at 2nd. Every team has a signal pattern for those situations instead of giving a straight ... 1 is a fastball, 2 is a curveball, 3 is changeup ... etc. With a runner at second, they may give three signals, the only one that would count might be the 2nd signal. There are all kinds of effective variations. Any batter attempting to figure out that scheme would be more distracted than benefited. I would WELCOME him to continue the practice! I would rather have him concentrating on the signals than the pitch.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[cowbyfan1]

I had a coach come up to me and complain that the other team was stealing signs.

I told him quess you better change them then and walked away.

[orioles35]

...which is part of the reason why many of us are perceived as having an "attitude".

[WindyCityBlue]

No, it is a fact. How should we handle it when there is no penalty? Ignore him? Laugh? Fly into a tirade and eject him for making a travesty of the game? :}

C'mon, it was a simple, honest answer. Depending on inflection, it could piss off or calm. That is the difference between good and bad umpiring.

[orioles35]

You could do what was just done...explain that there isn't a rule we can enforce in regard to stealing signs, therefore there's nothing that can be done....instead of making some snide remark and walking away.