Stealing signs

[orioles35]

To me, the game is about the kids. Especially at age 12.

Tournament semi-final game, team at bat is down by sevearl runs and coming out of the losers bracket, everyone well behaved. Catcher gets signals from dugout and gives them to the pitcher. In doing so, his fingers are near the dirt and can be seen everywhere, including by the third base coach. First the coach started saying "Fastball here", "watch the breaking pitch". Next inning he says, "Got some heat here", or "keep your hands back" for the breaking pitch. I wander over to the other coach and quietly inform him of what's going on (since he didn't seem to be figuring it out himself).

Agree/disagree?

[David B]

Originally posted by orioles35
To me, the game is about the kids. Especially at age 12.

Tournament semi-final game, team at bat is down by sevearl runs and coming out of the losers bracket, everyone well behaved. Catcher gets signals from dugout and gives them to the pitcher. In doing so, his fingers are near the dirt and can be seen everywhere, including by the third base coach. First the coach started saying "Fastball here", "watch the breaking pitch". Next inning he says, "Got some heat here", or "keep your hands back" for the breaking pitch. I wander over to the other coach and quietly inform him of what's going on (since he didn't seem to be figuring it out himself).

Agree/disagree?

Umpire, don't coach.

However, if you want to do something to help, simply tell the F2. Hey, they're stealing you signs.

Keep it simple.

Thanks
David

[DG]

Originally posted by orioles35
To me, the game is about the kids. Especially at age 12.

Tournament semi-final game, team at bat is down by sevearl runs and coming out of the losers bracket, everyone well behaved. Catcher gets signals from dugout and gives them to the pitcher. In doing so, his fingers are near the dirt and can be seen everywhere, including by the third base coach. First the coach started saying "Fastball here", "watch the breaking pitch". Next inning he says, "Got some heat here", or "keep your hands back" for the breaking pitch. I wander over to the other coach and quietly inform him of what's going on (since he didn't seem to be figuring it out himself).

Agree/disagree?

Agree or disagree to what? That it's ok for one team to steal signs, or that it's ok for you to give coaching tips during games? I will answer both.

When I coached I never really cared if the other team was trying to steal the signs. It was my team's job to hide them, disguise them, change them, etc. so they never got good information, even if they could steal them. I made it a "game within the game" and the younger kids especially loved it. It was like learning a new language that only our team spoke. Stealing signs is part of the game, at all levels, and so is playing games with signs.

Some summer leagues I work are very competitive, with good players and good coaches. Sometimes I might be tempted to give them a tip, but would not. In a tournament, it would not cross my mind. They are on their own. If I start giving them tips, what's next - "hey catcher, this kid can not hit a curveball".

[LDUB]

I don't think a 12 year old should be throwning a curveball anyways.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by orioles35
To me, the game is about the kids. Especially at age 12.

Tournament semi-final game, team at bat is down by sevearl runs and coming out of the losers bracket, everyone well behaved. Catcher gets signals from dugout and gives them to the pitcher. In doing so, his fingers are near the dirt and can be seen everywhere, including by the third base coach. First the coach started saying "Fastball here", "watch the breaking pitch". Next inning he says, "Got some heat here", or "keep your hands back" for the breaking pitch. I wander over to the other coach and quietly inform him of what's going on (since he didn't seem to be figuring it out himself).

Agree/disagree?

First of all, there is no rule in any rule book that deals with sign stealing. It is not the job of the umpire to deal with this. You are interfering with the game here - the opposition figured out the code so what? It has nothing to do with officiating the game! It doesn't matter how old the players are, don't inject yourself into the game!

[Cubbies87]

Stealing signs is part of the game, and umpires should not go meddling in business that is not theirs, I agree.

However, there are times when an umpire NEEDS to inject himself into the game to prevent disasters.

14U A batter comes up to the plate, takes his sign from the 3B coach, then turns back and stares at the catcher signing to the pitcher. He does this before every pitch. The catcher even said to him, "Stop stealing my signs." The kid continued to look back. He popped out, and the inning ended shortly after.

I made it my business to let the batter's coach know his player was stealing signs from the catcher while at bat. I did not tell him that he had to change anything, but I impressed upon him that I did not want a fastball coming high and tight on a 14 year old kid because he didn't realize what stealing signs can do.

The coach was shocked his player was looking back, thanked me, and took care of the problem. While it's not my job to coach, it is my job to prevent problems when I can, even when it is something as routine as stealing signs.

[Gee]

Would any of you allow the batter to turn around and look at the catchers signal? Citation please.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Gee
Would any of you allow the batter to turn around and look at the catchers signal? Citation please.

If these are young kids, I would dust the plate, and tell him that the pitcher might throw at him if he keeps it up. But under normal circumstances, the players should know that they should not do that, there is no reason for me to tell them anything. If the batter wants to risk getting hit, then that is up to him.

[Edited by LDUB on Jul 29th, 2004 at 03:05 PM]

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by LDUB

If these are young kids, I would dust the plate, and tell him that the pitcher might throw at him if he keeps it up. But under normal circumstances, the players should know that they should not do that, there is no reason for me to tell them anything. If the batter wants to risk getting hit, then that is up to him.

[Edited by LDUB on Jul 29th, 2004 at 03:05 PM]

I hope you wouldn't do that. Stealing signs is as old as the game and there is no penalty for it. Most younger players have the pitchs called from the dugout anyway. What do we do next? "Keep your eyes forward, son."

Umpires are not tattlers...if the catcher can't hide his sign better, then shame on him.

I don't look for a cop when someone goes speeding by me. If they get caught it was because they were stupid...same thought as before.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

I hope you wouldn't do that. Stealing signs is as old as the game and there is no penalty for it. Most younger players have the pitchs called from the dugout anyway. What do we do next? "Keep your eyes forward, son."

Umpires are not tattlers...if the catcher can't hide his sign better, then shame on him.

I don't look for a cop when someone goes speeding by me. If they get caught it was because they were stupid...same thought as before.

Mabye I phrased it wrong. I meant I would never say anything, unless the kids were young. When I said young, I was thinking LL (10-12 years old.) And I wouldn't do it if he looked back once or twice. If it was his third time to bat, and the catcher and pitcher were getting mad at him, and I would tell him to watch out. I would not tell him to keep his eyes forward.

[WindyCityBlue]

Luke,
You've been here a long time. You realize that any time we inject ourselves into the game, we are looking for trouble.
No matter what age, you - as the umpire, have no authority to do anything about it. Not only that, but it is just bad form. A lot of our younger members and guests think of umpires as police officers. We really aren't...we are like the broadcasters. We see something happen and then tell the world what we saw. It really is that simple.

I work a higher level of ball and see teams that have assitant coaches and pine riders who do nothing but try to steal the other teams signs. While they do gain an advantage by knowing about a pitch out or a steal, the are gaining thatadvantage through skill and guile. Is it any different from a defensive coach signalling a pitch out because he figured out the offensive coach's steal sign?
We certainly won't jump into that mess, no matter the age.

Your answers here have usually been well spoken and pretty solid. I'm concerned that you might be trying to "right a wrong" or protect the integrity of the game. Both are admirable but misplaced with this mechanic. The best advice I can offer is to admire good play and skill. The kid that is stealing the sign is just a little smarter than his competition - fair or not.

[Jeremiah]

My high school coach would have at least one bench player trying to pick up the other team's signs. I don't see anything illegal about that.

-Jeremiah

[LDUB]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Your answers here have usually been well spoken and pretty solid. I'm concerned that you might be trying to "right a wrong" or protect the integrity of the game. Both are admirable but misplaced with this mechanic. The best advice I can offer is to admire good play and skill. The kid that is stealing the sign is just a little smarter than his competition - fair or not.

The reason I was going to tell the batter was because I thought the pitcher might throw at the batter, and he might get hurt. But now that I think about it, I would not say anything. I said I would only do it if the players were very young, like LL. But in LL, pitchers don't throw at batter, they have enough trouble thowing strikes as it is. So I take it back, I would never say anything.

[JJ]

A few years back we had a team that was very good at stealing signs in our state Legion program. When they got to the State Tournament that information was relayed to the Legion Representative, and he actually stopped the game and came on the field to tell the umpires to "stop this immediately". The umpires told him, "Leave the field immediately or be removed, and if you persist WE will leave." He said it was unsportsmanlike to steal signs, and we said, "Then tell the coaches - ALL of the coaches - to tell their catchers to do a better job of hiding signs."
Stealing signs is as old as the game - and there are ways of doing it that are acceptable (not with binoculars from the centerfield scoreboard, as was tried at Wrigley Field). My only hope when I played the game was that when the sign-stealer told me "curveball" he was right!

[WindyCityBlue]

"Ooooh, he get's a steak for hitting the bull!

"Did you tell him?"

"Yeah, I told him."

"Sh*t."

-----------You gotta love free signs!