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Fri Jul 30, 2004, 10:42pm
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I had a "stealing signs" situation recently. And although all those who have commented on this will probably still hold their opinion, theres a little twist I could use your opinion on.
This was a championship game for 13 year-olds here in So Calif, at the recent USSSA week long World Series. It was 4-man, and I had 1B. First base coach would look into F2 to try and see what the sign was. Now, when he was doing this, he was maybe 1 step out of the box. Nothing out of the ordinary. This obviously gave him a better view, but even if he was in the box, he would have been able to see the signs, as F2 didnt do a good job at that at all. Coach would see the sign, and then discretly hold down 1 or 2 fingers in his pocket. Then, coach standing in first base dugout, would see this, and start saying "One One One" or "Two Two Two." Loud enough for the batter to hear. And of course F2. Why F2 never caught on, who knows. This was the first time I ever have seen something this blatant. I thought for a while about saying something, as inside, it bothered me. But then I thought, as mentioned above, its not my place. And although coach is not really "IN" the box, coaches stand outside it, behind it, in front of it, all the time. He wasnt blocking my view, etc. Now, after the game, I asked my partners about it, and they all agreed, I should have told coach to get in the box. Tell him..."Hey coach, North-South is ok, but I need you in the box." I countered with the fact arnt, I giving tips, or "coaching" which isnt my place? They mentioned the batter "getting one in the ear". They agreed that a batter getting doinked is probably going to happen at a higher level, but why not do some "preventive umpiring" now? Im still on the fence on this. Anybody? 
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Fri Jul 30, 2004, 11:56pm
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I think there is no reason to tell the base coach to stay in the box, without someone complaining first. You are not protecting any batter by doing this. If F1 realizes that signs are being stolen, he is not going to throw the next pitch at the batter's head. He is going to call time, and tell his idiot catcher to hide the signs better. And if F2 can't hide the signs, then if they are smart, they will go to a full set of signs. So I think you did the right thing by saying nothing.
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Sat Jul 31, 2004, 06:59am
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I keep 1B coaches away from 1B if they are stealing signs or not. If I am U1, I want a clear shot at the plate to see check swings, where the ball is etc. If the coach wants to leave the box, as you say "north or south", I don't care if no one else does.
But that space between the box and the baseline is MINE. It's my viewing lane. While I have no problem with teams and coaches stealing signs (hey, if they can do it, more power to them-it's part of the game), I would have moved him for MY reasons, not because of his sign stealing. "Hey coach, need for you to stay back. I need to be able to see the plate. Thanks."
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Sat Jul 31, 2004, 09:41am
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Sat Jul 31, 2004, 12:56pm
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If the coach is between the box and 1B, he IS blocking my view, that's my point. I want that lane clear.
On a properly laid out 90' field, the box is supposed to be 15' from the baseline, but often they aren't due to smaller foul territory areas. If it really is 15', OK, he probably gets a step inside the box, but if it is less, as many HS fields are, I want him back out of the way. As I said, I don't care if he steals signs, perfectly legal, and any good 13 year old catcher knows how to block the 1B coach and runner with his glove. Personally, I just don't want the coach between the box and the baseline, that is MY line of sight.
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Sat Jul 31, 2004, 03:21pm
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Sat Jul 31, 2004, 05:58pm
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LDUB:
Yes, I read it, but you are missing my point entirely. Call it game management, but even if I could see an eye chart being held up by the PU, if the 1B coach is between the box and the base line, I'm TELLING him, "Coach, you blocking my view, back up a step." They never complain when you tell them you are being blocked. But if you were to say, "Coach, you can't be out there stealing signs" or "Coach, you have to stay in the box", you have just turned this into a pi$$ing contest. Avoid all that. TELL him he's blocking your view. I don't care if he is really blocking it or not, he is somewhere where he really isn't supposed to be, and he is gaining an advantage from it. If he can still steal the signs from the box, good for him. But the easiest way of keeping him from taking advantage (which is how this post started in the first place) is to push him back by SAYING, "Coach, you're blocking ny view. I need to be able to see the batter and the catcher."
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Sat Jul 31, 2004, 11:10pm
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If I was managing a team, and you told my coach to get back in the box because he was stealing signs, I would not say anything. I would sit there and wait. But the second that the coach from the other team steps out of the box to talk to R1, and you don't tell him to get in the box, them I am goning to call time and come out to argue with you. Here is what the conversation would go like. (ME) So you allow this guy to get out of the box, but you tell my coach to get back in the box when he leaves it, why is that? (YOU) Well that's simple, it is because your coach was stealing signs, and I don't want him to be able to do that. You are digging yourself a hole by telling my coach to get in the box.
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Sun Aug 01, 2004, 08:32am
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Actually, I'd ask you what you were doing out of YOUR dugout. It fits the theme so much better. Then I'd eject you. --Rich
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Sun Aug 01, 2004, 08:57am
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Had it happen last week with a batter.
The catcher said, "Hey boy quit stealing my sings". I kinda smiled. Then the batter struck out or poped up I don't remember. The catcher turned to me and asked "Did you see that guy stealing my signs?" I said "yeah, and a lot of good it did, he is on the bench." The catcher laughed. So the next time the batter comes up, the catcher says, "Well here comes nosey" So I call time brush the plate and look dead into the catcher's eyes. He smiled and got the message. No high and tight, I beleive the kid stuck out. I agree that stealing signs is part of the game. And getting caught can have some bad results. But if those bad results happen, ejection is the rule.
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Sun Aug 01, 2004, 11:27am
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4.05
It has been common practice for many years for some coaches to put one foot outside the coach's box or stand astride or otherwise be slightly outside the coaching box lines. The coach shall not be considered out of the box unless the opposing manager complains, and then, the umpire shall strictly enforce the rule and require all coaches (on both teams) to remain in the coach's box at all times. It is also common practice for a coach who has a play at his base to leave the coach's box to signal the player to slide, advance or return to a base. This may be allowed if the coach does not interfere with the play in any manner. Quote:
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Sun Aug 01, 2004, 06:48pm
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Thanks all for the advice.
LDUB---It wasnt obvious to everyone. The catcher, I guess was just clueless. Which is surprising, as this was the championhsip game, after a long week of 15+ games. So for a team to get that far, you figure, must be well-coached, players are in tune to stuff like that, etc. The batter could hear, obviously, so that means that F2 could. Why he didnt pick up on it, dont know. ATL BLUE--Continuing on your theme of telling the coach to stay in the box, first of all he wasnt CLOSE to blocking my view, and YES, I know the true meaning of what you saying. But why play games? And, If I tell him he had to stay in box, what do you think happens the instant the opposing 1B coach steps one foot outside? Yup, the sign stealing coach now lets me know I need to make the OTHER coach stay in the box. And hes right. Now I just picked up the shi**y end of the stick. The second I tell the unknowing opposing coach to stay in the box, I just opened the door. He asks why. Sounds like Im instigating, and inserting myself way too much into the game. Yeah, inside Im thinking this stealing signs (for this age group) is BS, but Im there to call safe/out etc, which I CAN see from my spot. Not alter the course of the game. [Edited by chuckfan1 on Aug 1st, 2004 at 07:50 PM]
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Sun Aug 01, 2004, 10:42pm
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I have to admit -- this board has gotten incredibly tiresome the past few weeks. I think I'm going to disappear for a while.
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Sun Aug 01, 2004, 11:31pm
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__________________
GB
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Mon Aug 02, 2004, 02:18am
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Let me sum up what has gone on in this thread so it is easier for everyone to understand. chuckfan1 says in one of his games, the 1st base coach was moving out of the coach's box to steal the catcher's sigsns. He said he did nothing to stop him. I say that chuckfan1 did the right thing by allowin him to steal the signs. Atlblue says that he would make the coach stay in the box because he is blocking his view. I say thathe umpire's his view. Atl blue says that he is practicing good game management by keeping him in the box. If the coach can steal signs from the box that is ok, but he can't do it from outside the box. I say that you should not try to stop a team from stealing signs. I also say you are going to get yourself in trobuble telling the coach of one team to stay in the box, but not the other. If I was manager of the team stealing signs, I would go up to the umpire and ask that both coaches be treated equally. Rich says if he were umpiring the game, and I came up to him to ask that both teams be treated equally, he would ask me what I am doing out of my dugout, then eject me. I point out rule 4.05, and indicate that it makes no sense to eject me for asking for this rule to be enforced evenly. Rich replies "I'd tell you to get off the field and not be picky about rules that are customarily ignored." I agree with Rich that this rule is normally ignored, and normally I would not ask for you to enforce this rule. But you have takeen it into your own hands (without the opposing manager complaning) to enforce a rule which you state is customaarilly ignored. So me, the manager, comes to you and asks you to enforce rule 4.05 against both teams. And you are going to tell me not to be picky? I do not think it is picky to ask that both teams be treated equally. Rich and Atlblue, do you see what you have done? You attempt to prevent a team from stealing signs. You decided to enforce rule 4.05 with out anyone complaining first. And then you refuse to enforce rule 4.05 equally against both teams. That is some quality officiating.
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