Stealing signs

[David B]

Originally posted by LDUB

Rich, I'm sorry, but you have contradicted yourself.

Let me sum up what has gone on in this thread so it is easier for everyone to understand.


chuckfan1 says in one of his games, the 1st base coach was moving out of the coach's box to steal the catcher's sigsns. He said he did nothing to stop him.

I say that chuckfan1 did the right thing by allowin him to steal the signs.

Atlblue says that he would make the coach stay in the box because he is blocking his view.

I say thathe umpire's his view.

Atl blue says that he is practicing good game management by keeping him in the box. If the coach can steal signs from the box that is ok, but he can't do it from outside the box.

I say that you should not try to stop a team from stealing signs. I also say you are going to get yourself in trobuble telling the coach of one team to stay in the box, but not the other. If I was manager of the team stealing signs, I would go up to the umpire and ask that both coaches be treated equally.

Rich says if he were umpiring the game, and I came up to him to ask that both teams be treated equally, he would ask me what I am doing out of my dugout, then eject me.

I point out rule 4.05, and indicate that it makes no sense to eject me for asking for this rule to be enforced evenly.

Rich replies "I'd tell you to get off the field and not be picky about rules that are customarily ignored."


I agree with Rich that this rule is normally ignored, and normally I would not ask for you to enforce this rule. But you have takeen it into your own hands (without the opposing manager complaning) to enforce a rule which you state is customaarilly ignored. So me, the manager, comes to you and asks you to enforce rule 4.05 against both teams. And you are going to tell me not to be picky? I do not think it is picky to ask that both teams be treated equally.

Rich and Atlblue, do you see what you have done? You attempt to prevent a team from stealing signs. You decided to enforce rule 4.05 with out anyone complaining first. And then you refuse to enforce rule 4.05 equally against both teams. That is some quality officiating.

I'm the umpire and I can enforce anything that I see needs to be enforced. It doesn't matter if a coach likes it or not.

There are many many many times when we enforce a rule for one and team and NOT the other.

Batter not in on-deck area
Coaches out of the dugout
F2 baiting a batter
F6/F4 baiting a runner
Pitcher doing a "don't do that" and we have to tell F2 to tell him to fix it

Maybe since I generally deal with kids that shave I look as this as common sense umpiring.

And if you're the coach and don't like it, tough.

I agree with Rich, if you came out on my field I'd give you two options. Enough said.

Wait, I missed something Rich is writing again for the main board????

Might be worth renewing my subscription. (g)

Thanks
David

[GarthB]

Originally posted by David B


Wait, I missed something Rich is writing again for the main board????

Might be worth renewing my subscription. (g)

Thanks
David

What something is worth is varies from individual to individual, but if you somehow found Officiating.com worth subscribing to without Rich's contributions, you would find it more so with his contributions.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by David B
I'm the umpire and I can enforce anything that I see needs to be enforced. It doesn't matter if a coach likes it or not.

There are many many many times when we enforce a rule for one and team and NOT the other.

Batter not in on-deck area
Coaches out of the dugout
F2 baiting a batter
F6/F4 baiting a runner
Pitcher doing a "don't do that" and we have to tell F2 to tell him to fix it

Maybe since I generally deal with kids that shave I look as this as common sense umpiring.

And if you're the coach and don't like it, tough.

I agree with Rich, if you came out on my field I'd give you two options. Enough said.

Wait, I missed something Rich is writing again for the main board????

Might be worth renewing my subscription. (g)

Thanks
David

Everyone is missing the entire point of the thread. Atlblue said he would attempt to stop a coach from stealing signs, and that is it good game management to do so. Do you agree or disagree?

I attempted to point out that it is not the right thing to do, but it has spun out of control and changed topics to coachs out of the box.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by LDUB
Everyone is missing the entire point of the thread. Atlblue said he would attempt to stop a coach from stealing signs, and that is it good game management to do so. Do you agree or disagree?

I attempted to point out that it is not the right thing to do, but it has spun out of control and changed topics to coachs out of the box.

My answer: It depends.

If the coach is in a "legal" position (in the dugout, in the coach's box) there's nothing to do.

If the coach is blatantly cheating (standing in fair ground, using binoculars beyond the fence), do something.

In between?

For me, if I'd allow the coach's positioning if he wasn't stealing signs, I'd allow it if he was.

[akalsey]

I see no reason at all to stop someone from stealing signs. It's part of baseball. Gaining an advantage against the other team by tricking them within the rules is perfectly okay. The other team should be expecting it and attempting to guard against it. That's one of the things I love about baseball -- being skilled in the sport requires more than athletic skill.

[orioles35]

Well, this has raised some interesting issues.

I respect those that feel umpires should not interfere in stealing signs unless a rule (i.e. coaches being out of the box) is being broken. I don't entirely disagree.

Stealing signs is not against the rules, but if you've got the oppositions signs, why communicate it in such a way that your opponent might change them so you DON'T have that advantage? The game I called, the third base coach was verbally communicating them to the batter. Let's say we have one of those coaches on the other side that we all know too well, Mr. Bad Attitude. And let's say he does just what other suggested in this thread, has his pitcher (in this case a twelve year old) throw at another batter, then starts mouthing off from the dugout at the other coach about stealing signs, the other coach yells back about hiding them better, suddenly that 8-3 game doesn't become so much fun any more. And possibly has a kid hurt, as well.

Maybe it wasn't my place to do so, but neither do I think twelve year olds should be taught such a thing at their age. While it isn't against the rules, it isn't exactly fair, but it isn't quite cheating either. Certainly isn't good sportsmanship.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by orioles35
Well, this has raised some interesting issues.

I respect those that feel umpires should not interfere in stealing signs unless a rule (i.e. coaches being out of the box) is being broken. I don't entirely disagree.

Stealing signs is not against the rules, but if you've got the oppositions signs, why communicate it in such a way that your opponent might change them so you DON'T have that advantage? The game I called, the third base coach was verbally communicating them to the batter. Let's say we have one of those coaches on the other side that we all know too well, Mr. Bad Attitude. And let's say he does just what other suggested in this thread, has his pitcher (in this case a twelve year old) throw at another batter, then starts mouthing off from the dugout at the other coach about stealing signs, the other coach yells back about hiding them better, suddenly that 8-3 game doesn't become so much fun any more. And possibly has a kid hurt, as well.

Maybe it wasn't my place to do so, but neither do I think twelve year olds should be taught such a thing at their age. While it isn't against the rules, it isn't exactly fair, but it isn't quite cheating either. Certainly isn't good sportsmanship.

What could you have done to stop this guy from stealig signs?

[Atl Blue]

Sorry, I took my football team to camp this week and missed the board.

LDUB: You have entirely missed my point. Where did I say I would not enforce this for BOTH teams? I do not care WHY a coach is between the box and the line, I don't care if he is stealing signs, or talking to his runner or calling his mother, it makes no difference. When we are in play, live action, with a pitch, I am backing ALL first base coaches back behind the coaches box line that runs parallel to the 1B line. That lane between the coaches box and 1B is MY line of sight to the plate, and NO first base coach is going to stand in that lane for ANY reason. It has NOTHING to do with stealing signs. If he wants to steal signs from the coaches box, great have at it, it's part of baseball. But he is NOT doing it from the space between the box and 1B, and it has NOTHING to do with stealing the signs, it has ONLY to do with I am not allowing ANY coach in that space.

North or south of the box, fine, I don't care. Back toward the dugout, away from the base, great, stand there if you want. But if you are the 1B coach, you will NOT stand between the box and 1B, FOR ANY REASON, especially on fields where that distance is squeezed t less than the 15' in the book.

Good grief, I am not against stealing signs. I am not enforcing this for one team and not the other. NO coach stands between the box and the base, FOR ANY REASON.

[LDUB]

Ok thats fine, if you do it because it may block your view. I thought you were just saying that he was blocking your view as an excuse to get him in the box because he was stealing signs.

That still leaves Rich out there though. He enforces it for one team but not the other. And then when the manager asks for him to enforce it evenly, he tells him to get off the field and not be picky about rules that are customarily ignored, right after he just enforced it.

[David B]

Originally posted by LDUB
Ok thats fine, if you do it because it may block your view. I thought you were just saying that he was blocking your view as an excuse to get him in the box because he was stealing signs.

That still leaves Rich out there though. He enforces it for one team but not the other. And then when the manager asks for him to enforce it evenly, he tells him to get off the field and not be picky about rules that are customarily ignored, right after he just enforced it.

I supported what Rich said so I'll throw in my 2 bits.

The other team did not have a coach out of the box. If he was then as Atl Blue stated he will get in the box.

I don't let a lot of coaches tell me what they are going to do. They have a place and that is where they will be.

If they don't like it I don't care what the other team thinks. I'm there to do my job.

If they want to steal signs is not the question. They can steal signs if they want. That is baseball.

As an umpire I do it all the time. Call it my hobby but I like to watch the coaches give signals and usually after a few innings by observing the game I pretty much know what they are going to do ahead of time.

I guess I was a F3 and F2 too long. We were taught as F3 to watch the coaches and find out the signs if we could. Pays dividends when you know what the team is going to do.

Thanks
David

[chris s]

Bout 5 years ago, Easter tourney/High school. Local catholic powerhouse vs team from Santa Cruz. Assistant coach with the last name Incaviglia, (Pete's brother, Rangers). Santa Cruz is staeling signs, big time. Inky directs his pitcher to plunk batter, not just one, but three. Big freaking mess, nobody gets tossed(still haven't figured that one out). Story makes the news/paper and ends up in CIF office for discipline, Inky loses job. And they say that high school sports are an extension of the classroom.....go figure

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by LDUB

If F1 realizes that signs are being stolen, he is not going to throw the next pitch at the batter's head.

Says who. Unfortunately in today's climate it would be nice to let the game take care of itself, but it doesn't. The simpliest things turn into nightmares.

Remember the On-Deck Nightmare in the Witchita St. Game. To me being in the wrong on deck circle and stealing signs are similar meaning one team is trying to gain an advantage.

The question is? As an umpire should we interject? The answer could be yes or no, meaning it depends upon the nature of the game.

Each game is unique and as an umpire you get a feel when things tense up or you feel something is going to happen.

Therefore, if you are umpiring rival teams and they do not like each other, then you do all the Preventative umpiring you can to avoid a possible fiasco and even then it doesn't work out sometimes.

It's like a basketball game in which teams are known to fight, ie; The OLD Miami Heat and NY Knicks. The referres would call that type of game closer than another game.

As far as your comment regarding the invoking of 4.05 IMO you do not have a point. Your coach is CHEATING, the Other Coach is simply talking to his/her player. IMO that's a BIG difference, which is the reason we instruct one coach to the box and not the other.

If your coach wants to talk to your players fine, but if he is simply out of the box to steal signs, then he is going back plain and simple. If you do not like it then as rich said - "see ya skip" and have a nice day.

If you as a coach want to be treated fairly, then do not cheat.

Pete Booth

[chris s]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

Maybe they throw things at each other in the classroom in that school district. It would not be unheard of.

Peter

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Nah, I wnt to that "catholic" school. The only folks throwing stuff were the Brothers....one of em had this big ol class ring.....top of the head wackage was inevitable!!! This was when beating kids was legal........


Nice to hear from ya Peter

[Gee]

Nice to see that your still hangin' in there Chris, regards, G.

[chris s]

Originally posted by Gee
Nice to see that your still hangin' in there Chris, regards, G.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mr George Lucy, say hey buddy!!!!! Hanging by a thread.....going through divorce and newly diagnosed diabetes....I am a literal mess.....BUT....still hanging