Stealing signs

[David Emerling]

It is true that stealing signs is part of the game. But looking back at the catcher is really *not* an acceptable part of the game.

There is no explicit rule against it, however. There is a DIFFERENCE between acceptable baseball protocol and what is technically legal/illegal in accordance with the rules. The umpire should really only interject himself on the latter.

At the higher levels, the players have a way of dealing with violations of protocol. At lower levels, it is the *coach's* responsibility to deal with such matters.

If I saw batters looking back at my catcher's sign to my pitcher, I would start screwing with his mind. I'd call time, call my pitcher and catcher together, and in an instant the problem would be rectified. We wouldn't need to throw at the batter. All we have to do is contaminate his data input to such a degree that it quickly no longer becomes worth his effort. And it stops! No big deal.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[WindyCityBlue]

Oriole35....what??? Did you read the last two sentences. I said that depending on how you state your decision will be the difference between being a good or bad.

I could have been snide and made a demeaning comment about your reply, but I simply stated the facts. How you interpret them is exactly what we are talking about. Even if I said, "Coach, you'll have to excuse my interruption, but I am well versed in the rules and mechanics of the game. Whilst, undergoing extensive testing, I read the rule book in its entirety and found no example of a penalty for the infraction you cited. Therefore, in my judgement, I cannot enforce a penalty for what you deem to be an infraction of the rules governing the game." If he is wound up, he's going to come unglued, no matter what you say. I'm not out there to bait him, but you just saw that a few simple sentences - without tone, inflection or stress - irritated you. Step back, deep breath - we are on the same side.

[WindyCityBlue]

Originally posted by David Emerling
It is true that stealing signs is part of the game. But looking back at the catcher is really *not* an acceptable part of the game.

There is no explicit rule against it, however. There is a DIFFERENCE between acceptable baseball protocol and what is technically legal/illegal in accordance with the rules. The umpire should really only interject himself on the latter.

At the higher levels, the players have a way of dealing with violations of protocol. At lower levels, it is the *coach's* responsibility to deal with such matters.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

This is absurd - read your second paragraph again. You have stated several times that you have used your officiating knowledge to affect the outcome of the game. Now, we know that none of your players would ever be involved in this type of chicanery, but let's suppose that his moral base slipped and he chose to partake. Now, according to you...I must interject if I see him do this. What am I going to say? "Stop doing that or if you persist I'll eject you for unsportsmanlike conduct." What will you, as the coach do? You'll ask me to show you the rule that allows a penalty for stealing signs. Then you'll say that the catcher should hide them better.

Now, you are eloquent enough to say that I'm putting words in your mouth and argue that you would do no such thing. But we have all seen your past comments. You can't have it both ways.

[Kaliix]

Ummmm....Windy, didn't Dave say that the umpirse should interject himself only in the latter case which would be "what is technically legal/illegal in accordance with the rules" or did I miss something?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

This is absurd - read your second paragraph again. You have stated several times that you have used your officiating knowledge to affect the outcome of the game. Now, we know that none of your players would ever be involved in this type of chicanery, but let's suppose that his moral base slipped and he chose to partake. Now, according to you...I must interject if I see him do this. What am I going to say? "Stop doing that or if you persist I'll eject you for unsportsmanlike conduct." What will you, as the coach do? You'll ask me to show you the rule that allows a penalty for stealing signs. Then you'll say that the catcher should hide them better.

Now, you are eloquent enough to say that I'm putting words in your mouth and argue that you would do no such thing. But we have all seen your past comments. You can't have it both ways.

[WindyCityBlue]

Ummmm....Windy, didn't Dave say that the umpirse should interject himself only in the latter case which would be "what is technically legal/illegal in accordance with the rules" or did I miss something?

Yep, you missed something. All along, we've read posts asserting that there is no specific rule that prohibits opposing players from watching and interpreting the other's signals. How can an umpire step in and say, "You can't look back at the catcher's signs." only to have the catcher is look at the third base coach, see the steal sign and call a pitch out?

You will open a big can of worms if you start making up rules. Dave was using coach's logic with his "technically legal/illegal" jargon. Coaches love calling the technical balk on the opposing player but hate it when you call it on theirs. Don't be fooled. Just because the catcher shows "fastball, in" doesn't mean that is what is being thrown. Conversely, I've known coaches to give the steal sign and then an indicator to wipe it off, just to get the rattle the battery.

This is a no win situation - don't do it!

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

This is absurd - read your second paragraph again. You have stated several times that you have used your officiating knowledge to affect the outcome of the game. Now, we know that none of your players would ever be involved in this type of chicanery, but let's suppose that his moral base slipped and he chose to partake. Now, according to you...I must interject if I see him do this. What am I going to say? "Stop doing that or if you persist I'll eject you for unsportsmanlike conduct." What will you, as the coach do? You'll ask me to show you the rule that allows a penalty for stealing signs. Then you'll say that the catcher should hide them better.

Now, you are eloquent enough to say that I'm putting words in your mouth and argue that you would do no such thing. But we have all seen your past comments. You can't have it both ways.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

All I'm saying is this - there is protocol and there are rules.

The umpire should only get involved with rule issues. The players have a way of dealing with protocol issues.

Looking back at the catcher is a violation of protocol. It isn't done. Yet, it's not illegal. So the umpire should allow it.

Now, as a coach, I am certainly not going to instruct my young pitcher to put the ball in the batter's ear. I am adamantly against such practices at the youth league level. I wouldn't even allow my son to play for a coach who instructed him to throw at a batter. There are other, very simple ways to fix the problem, even if the practice of looking at the catcher's signs persists.

That's all I'm saying.

I'm not sure what your beef is.

As a coach, have I ever used my knowledge of the rules and how umpires operate to gain an advantage? Hell, yes! Do you think that is an unfair advantage? I don't see why since the opposing coaches have access to the same information. It' up to the umpires to make sure nobody gets an unfair advantage.

When I coach, I'm an advocate for my team. When I umpire, I'm advocate for the Official Baseball Rules.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN



[Edited by David Emerling on Aug 28th, 2004 at 05:06 PM]

[Kaliix]

Dave,
That's how I read what you wrote. Oh well...

[WindyCityBlue]

I'm not sure what your beef is.

As a coach, have I ever used my knowledge of the rules and how umpires operate to gain an advantage? Hell, yes! Do you think that is an unfair advantage? I don't see why since the opposing coaches have access to the same information. It' up to the umpires to make sure nobody gets an unfair advantage.


No, it's up to the umpire to administrate the rules...you can still gain advantages (i.e. stealing signs)...it is up to the coaches to teach the players not to cheat and keep themselves from doing anything unethical. I have no problem with sign stealing, as I've said. I just don't like confusing younger umpires with protocol vs. technical. It is either a violation of the rules or it isn't. A lot of rookies are influenced by "spirit of the rules" comments from coaches and that is where I took exception. This is not a "J/R don't do that". In no way should an umpire step in and take issue with this. A rookie may have read it the other way and I thought I would clarify it. In the coming weeks, we will undoubtedly see another post that involves an umpire that involves himself in a "protocol" issue. I teach a lot of clinics and believe that good instructors provide all of the information or they don't discuss the issue. I don't like confusing rookies, the job is difficult enough. "My problem" was that you failed to identify what a "protocol" issue is and I'm sure a few guys may have come away with the wrong interpretation of your post.


"That is what I said, you fool." Inspector Clouseau

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I'm not sure what your beef is.

As a coach, have I ever used my knowledge of the rules and how umpires operate to gain an advantage? Hell, yes! Do you think that is an unfair advantage? I don't see why since the opposing coaches have access to the same information. It' up to the umpires to make sure nobody gets an unfair advantage.


No, it's up to the umpire to administrate the rules...you can still gain advantages (i.e. stealing signs)...it is up to the coaches to teach the players not to cheat and keep themselves from doing anything unethical. I have no problem with sign stealing, as I've said. I just don't like confusing younger umpires with protocol vs. technical. It is either a violation of the rules or it isn't. A lot of rookies are influenced by "spirit of the rules" comments from coaches and that is where I took exception. This is not a "J/R don't do that". In no way should an umpire step in and take issue with this. A rookie may have read it the other way and I thought I would clarify it. In the coming weeks, we will undoubtedly see another post that involves an umpire that involves himself in a "protocol" issue. I teach a lot of clinics and believe that good instructors provide all of the information or they don't discuss the issue. I don't like confusing rookies, the job is difficult enough. "My problem" was that you failed to identify what a "protocol" issue is and I'm sure a few guys may have come away with the wrong interpretation of your post.


"That is what I said, you fool." Inspector Clouseau

You're right about one thing, there *are* coaches out there who will try to get an umpire involved in a personal grievance that is completely of a "protocol" nature.

Here might be an example that some of you might find familiar:

A team is losing by a huge margin yet the other team is still stealing and bunting. Their pitcher is still attempting pickoffs and he has a 12-run lead. So the losing coach comes up to the umpire between innings and asks for some help. He wants the umpire to put an end to this "bulls&%t!"

Issue: It is a violation of protocol to continue to do "extra" things, whether on offense or defense, when your team is destroying another team. It's called "running up the score." You don't need to steal or bunt, and your pitcher should not be dragging the game on with any pickoff attempts. But it is *not* the umpire's job to put an end to it. It's between the two coaches. Now, if it turns into a beanball war, then it *does* become the umpire's business.

Now, there may be some subtle things an umpire can do to help out, but nothing terribly overt. You certainly can't tell the opposing coach HOW his team should play baseball nor preach to him about how the game is supposed to be played. A violation of protocol such as this should NOT be interpreted as unsportsmanlike conduct as some umpires think. Well, actually it *is* unsportsmanlike, but not the type of unsportsmanlike conduct that can get you ejected.

* * *

This is where an umpire's experience will hold him in good stead. You have to know the game of baseball to have an appreciation of the subtleties of protocol. When you understand it - you can anticipate how certain tensions might be building that could lead to a beanball war. This will give you an opportunity to use a wealth of game management skills to preempt this.

Now, if you're working with teams with young players and rookie coaches, you might take a brief moment and pass a tip to the coach as long as you are sure that it will be well received.

"Coach, you're winning 13-1. Are you working with your players on stealing or do you think you need a few more runs?" [g]

David Emerling
Memphis, TN