Get it Right...MLB Judgement Call

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by LDUB


1st and 2nd with one out? Even if the third strike goes uncaught the batter is out. How did neither one of you notice this when you had your conversation?

I told the story incorrectly. There was just a runner on 2nd. The runner on 2nd base advanced to 3rd. And I remember the coach wanting us to send the runner back to 2nd after we declared the batter/runner out.

Peace

[LDUB]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I told the story incorrectly. There was just a runner on 2nd. The runner on 2nd base advanced to 3rd. And I remember the coach wanting us to send the runner back to 2nd after we declared the batter/runner out.

Peace

Ok that makes sense now.

[Cubbies87]

With the new acceptance to change calls at the pro level, all the little people seeing it on TV have definitely caught on.

Championship game of the last day of a tournament last weekend (my 5th game of the day). My partner and I discussed real briefly that I would watch for the pulled foot and tag at first if I could and that if he wanted help he would go to me before his call.

Sharply hit ball hit to F9 who was playing in. F9 throws to F3 and my BU calls B1 out.

Some woman from behind the fence behind the plate on first base extended starts screaming that F3 was off the base. In this specific case, I disagreed with her.

The coach for the offense does a little jig, skips out of the dugout and yells over to me, "Can't I appeal that call to you?" I look at the coach, "No coach. You can't. Let's play!"

In a different game, my partner and I used a different method. If one of us felt we had information that could potentially alter the call, we would not go back to our position and would hold eye contact with our partner. A situation came up. I stood where I was and looked at my BU. He called time. He took the first step towards me for our meeting. He changed his call. If he felt his call was right, he wouldn't have changed anything.

Changing calls is becoming more acceptable. But, as we have discussed so vehemently, there are certain times and certain ways to go about it. Discuss it in your pregame. It doesn't have to be as difficult as it has been made out to be.

[JRutledge]

I do not think anyone is complaining that a call can be changed. But there is disagreement as to who does it and what procedure should be followed.

The only person that should change a call is the umpire that made it. And if there is something that is obvious like a dropped ball or a home run call, the umpires should have no problem changing the call. But to suggest that you see something different on a call you did not make, then change the call is ridiculous. That is really all that this discussion from at least my end has been about. But when you talk about pulled feet or tag or no tag calls, it better be the calling umpire that asks for help, and then gets it from his partner.

We all make mistakes and should not be stubborn to admit the real obvious ones. But the bang, bang calls that where no obvious situation took place, I do not feel that an umpire should ask for help if they saw the play. And a partner should not take it upon themselves to give information that has not been discussed in a pregame.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

LDUB -

I read your note about my basketball mention. If you recall, I brought this up to illustrate a point made by Jurassic that in basketball you can never change the judgement call of another official. I gave a ver specific example of an out of bounds call in the NCAA Tourney. I thought that the issue would die there, but a few of us can't seem to grasp the word play involved. Over-ruled/Changed/Corrected whatever you want to use...go ahead. The simple fact is that if an official makes a crucial error of judgement, we are seeing drastic changes in how they are handled. I back up all of my opinions with examples or fact. If this play was an aberation, IT STILL HAPPENED and they cannot dismiss that. In baseball we see a very real movement to get the call right. You have seen that my baseball knoweldge is as sharp as anyone here. I don't claim to have a wealth of basketball talent. I do however recognize that when people use the words never, always and without fail, that they are often in error. I am educated enough to be able to point these things out and attempt a reasonable discussion. I also know that a lot of rookie officials watch what transpires here and glean some of it. My purpose is to teach, share and correct any bad advice given here. I can be sarcastic and caustic, when the advie is horrible or the opinion arrogantly misplaced. However, I also contribute to the betterment of my brethren through the better share of my posts. Most know that when they see WindyCityBlue in the signature, there's something there that is logical and backed by fact and/or years of experience. You may not agree with me, but if you choose to argue, back it with a real situation and do it logically. I appreciate your candor and ask that you step back and look at the bigger picture. If I'm wrong (and I have posted mea culpas here) I will admit it. When it comes to this discussion, much to Jurassic's chagrin, I am happily gloating. You see ego is a very big part of the officiating recipe. We all smile when we leave teh field after we know the job was perfect. I'm leaving the field now, I backed up every call, and it's ear to ear, baby.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
LDUB -

I read your note about my basketball mention. If you recall, I brought this up to illustrate a point made by Jurassic that in basketball you can never change the judgement call of another official. I gave a ver specific example of an out of bounds call in the NCAA Tourney. I thought that the issue would die there, but a few of us can't seem to grasp the word play involved. Over-ruled/Changed/Corrected whatever you want to use...go ahead. The simple fact is that if an official makes a crucial error of judgement, we are seeing drastic changes in how they are handled. I back up all of my opinions with examples or fact. If this play was an aberation, IT STILL HAPPENED and they cannot dismiss that. In baseball we see a very real movement to get the call right. You have seen that my baseball knoweldge is as sharp as anyone here. I don't claim to have a wealth of basketball talent. I do however recognize that when people use the words never, always and without fail, that they are often in error. I am educated enough to be able to point these things out and attempt a reasonable discussion. I also know that a lot of rookie officials watch what transpires here and glean some of it. My purpose is to teach, share and correct any bad advice given here. I can be sarcastic and caustic, when the advie is horrible or the opinion arrogantly misplaced. However, I also contribute to the betterment of my brethren through the better share of my posts. Most know that when they see WindyCityBlue in the signature, there's something there that is logical and backed by fact and/or years of experience. You may not agree with me, but if you choose to argue, back it with a real situation and do it logically. I appreciate your candor and ask that you step back and look at the bigger picture. If I'm wrong (and I have posted mea culpas here) I will admit it. When it comes to this discussion, much to Jurassic's chagrin, I am happily gloating. You see ego is a very big part of the officiating recipe. We all smile when we leave teh field after we know the job was perfect. I'm leaving the field now, I backed up every call, and it's ear to ear, baby.

NCAA Basketball Rule 2-2-3- "No official shall have the authority TO SET ASIDE or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective duties".

You seem to have a comprehension problem, Windy. A very big comprehension problem. You seem completely unable to comprehend written rules. The above basketball RULE simply states that one basketball official CANNOT overrrule another basketball official, no matter what any baseball umpire may try to claim.

No chagrin from me at all, Windy. If you wanna pretend that the rule cited above doesn't exist, hey, go ahead. To be quite honest, that's about what I expected from you anyway. You're completely out of your area of expertise, but you're still trying to bull**** your way through.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I read your note about my basketball mention. If you recall, I brought this up to illustrate a point made by Jurassic that in basketball you can never change the judgment call of another official. I gave a very specific example of an out of bounds call in the NCAA Tourney. I thought that the issue would die there, but a few of us can't seem to grasp the word play involved. Over-ruled/Changed/Corrected whatever you want to use...go ahead. The simple fact is that if an official makes a crucial error of judgment, we are seeing drastic changes in how they are handled. I back up all of my opinions with examples or fact. If this play was an aberation, IT STILL HAPPENED and they cannot dismiss that.

With all due respect Windy, no one is disagreeing with what you saw, we are disagreeing of how the judgment was changed. That is all that is it. And in the game of basketball you can never change a judgment call for another official, PERIOD!!! And I would like to add, you do not know the conversation that was had between the officials or have a real sense of how these things are handled in the game of basketball. Out of bounds calls often are not something that the calling official can see, he needs help to make the proper call. Most of the time in situations like out of bounds call, the calling officials is asking for help.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
In baseball we see a very real movement to get the call right. You have seen that my baseball knowledge is as sharp as anyone here. I don't claim to have a wealth of basketball talent. I do however recognize that when people use the words never, always and without fail, that they are often in error.

I will continue to teach in the basketball arena, to never change a call, but to give information. And I will teach how to handle those situations and when to not give information. You can NEVER tell anyone to change a foul call, no ands, ifs and or buts about it.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I am educated enough to be able to point these things out and attempt a reasonable discussion. I also know that a lot of rookie officials watch what transpires here and glean some of it. My purpose is to teach, share and correct any bad advice given here. I can be sarcastic and caustic, when the advie is horrible or the opinion arrogantly misplaced.

I think Rookies can determine what is good or bad advice. Everyone here still has to go in front of their fellow umpires and officials and go along with what happens in their area. You cannot make everyone see things just your way. But you also gave a very bad example to use the basketball analogy. Many have told you that does not apply.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
However, I also contribute to the betterment of my brethren through the better share of my posts. Most know that when they see WindyCityBlue in the signature, there's something there that is logical and backed by fact and/or years of experience.

Windy that is no different than anyone here. I cannot say that most here do not want to provide information that is logical and correct. But we all do not have to agree on how things are handled. But to be so stubborn when you have multiple officials of multiple sports tell you that you are wrong, that also can mean something as well. And these are not rookies stating their case. These are posters that have been around here for some time and longer than you or I in some cases.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You may not agree with me, but if you choose to argue, back it with a real situation and do it logically.

I do not know how much logical anyone can get by showing you the rulebook quote, word for word. You totally dismissed that and are telling folks that they do not know what to do in a sport you do not officiate. I really do not know who is using logic here?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I appreciate your candor and ask that you step back and look at the bigger picture. If I'm wrong (and I have posted mea culpas here) I will admit it. When it comes to this discussion, much to Jurassic's chagrin, I am happily gloating. You see ego is a very big part of the officiating recipe. We all smile when we leave teh field after we know the job was perfect. I'm leaving the field now, I backed up every call, and it's ear to ear, baby.

Dude, this is not a competition. You were totally wrong on your debate with JR and you still have not admitted you have made a mistake. You continue to tell us you won a debate when the actual rules were given to dispute your point. I think it is just sad and that is why LDUB called you on it.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jul 4th, 2004 at 06:38 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

I agree with Rut, damnit!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I agree with Rut, damnit!

[WindyCityBlue]

Jeff,
That was the most complete and logical interaction that you've shared with me (since some a-hole tried some race stuff and Yaworksi claimed that 80 year olds herald from the greatest generation atha ever lived.) Thank you.

The fundamental disagreement that we have is that I saw a play occur, saw the highlights of it pored over on network TV and heard the discussion about it. The rule might be very clear, but it apparently wasn't followed. The baseball rule book also states that the umpires will provide a resin bag for use. I have never had to do this in all of my years of baseball. Let us agree that things happen that may not be in accordance to the rule book. I never claimed to be a basketball guru. I did take issue with JR stating that once a judgement call has been made in basketball, it cannot be set aside like they are preaching in baseball. I like what I saw at Wrigley the other day (besides the victory). An umpire made a tough call, but had the sense to back down when his partners said that they saw something different. Reliford is an excellent arbiter, but he kicked it. The reason the umpires are backing down so much is because they don't want to be governed by instant replay. Imagine if every one of our calls was scrutinized on a 200 foot big screen!

As for LDUB, last week he advised a rookie that he would tell his team to lower their shoulders into defensive players who take up positions in the baseline. This is from an umpire and a Dad. I take his advice and criticism with a grain of salt. You know all too well that I call people on bad advice. You have read more than one of my posts that upholds the integrity of the game and informs others about how they can become better. I am glad to see that you recognize that I only take issue with things I can back up. No more basketball talk, back to baseball...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I did take issue with JR stating that once a judgement call has been made in basketball, it cannot be set aside like they are preaching in baseball.

Uh no, JR NEVER said that. JR never said anything that was even close to that. JR said that one basketball official can NEVER OVERRULE another basketball official. JR said that there's a rule that backs that statement up too. JR then cited the rule verbatim. Don't try to change history on JR, Windy.

Any official in basketball that makes a judgement call can change that call HIMSELF if he thinks that he mighta screwed it up. He can also seek or get input from his partner(s) prior to making his decision. The calling official then is the only official that can make that change of his own call. No one else. And yes, it does happen fairly often because basketball officials wanna get the call right too.

That's what JR said, and that's what JR is still saying.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Jeff,
That was the most complete and logical interaction that you've shared with me (since some a-hole tried some race stuff and Yaworksi claimed that 80 year olds herald from the greatest generation atha ever lived.) Thank you.

I do not take that as a complement at all. You have just been caught to be completely wrong. That was not the first time I said that about this issue, but you still want to hold on to your point of view. It is obvious you do not want to admit you are wrong, you just want to change the tone of the discussion to make it seem as if everyone changed their discussion.

Have a great 4th of July Windy.

Peace

[DG]

Except for NFL, which has the instant replay, the umpire, referee, official, making the call should be the only one to be able to "correct" the call, given feedback from his partners. There are rules to substantiate this, as have been mentioned here. However, our problem, and much debate, comes from having seen games, where it "appeared" that one official overruled another. I have definitely seen games in football, basketball, and basketball where it "appeared" than one official arrived on the scene a second or so after the call, and the call was changed. I will assume that the other official arrived with information he wanted to share, and having heard this information the calling official was convinced that the call needed to be changed, and he changed it. I have also seen cases where a second official arrived with information to share, and the call stood, most likely because the calling official was convinced of his ruling.

I have never been overruled by a partner, nor have I overruled a partner. I have both received and provided information which resulted in a change of call either by myself or by my partner. I have even changed calls based on what players tell me, if I believe them.

Except in the NFL, when video is used, the official gets an opportunity to change his call, and it's up to him to do so, or not.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by DG
Except in the NFL, when video is used, the official gets an opportunity to change his call, and it's up to him to do so, or not.

Only certain NFL calls can be changed. You cannot change a fumble that was ruled down by contact. You cannot change penalty calls or even review them. There are many other situations that cannot be reviewed.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

Okay, I'm going to end this once and for all...
Jurassic, Rut, you guys hold onto whatever you can regarding this issue. When the discussion firest began it concerned one official coming to another and telling him that he judged or ruled the call incorrectly. I used the term overrule - you say corrected and changed. Get over it...neither of you has ever worked as an official at the professional level. In Minor League baseball we have a crew chief who CAN and WILL overrule a call made by a member of that crew. I have been in both positions. I provided examples of calls that should be changed. I also gave you reasons why this should happen. Rut came back that no other sport allows this. I said that I saw it happen in basketball. Jurassic said, nope can't happen. I gave the exact play. You then said that I didn't hear the exchange. Doesn't matter...you didn't either. Then, you say that the calling official corrected the call, but again, I told you of the example where it didn't. You counter with, well it might have happened, but the crew shouldn't have. Good God, when have either of you worked the NCAA tournament? You gave an opinion, I countered it with a real world example, you dismiss it and then say I'm wrong. Don't quote a rule and twist semantics. The call was blown and the other ref made the reversal. The calling ref was never involved in changing the call. He ran up court when the other ref signalled the ball the other way. The could have punched each otherout after the game...I don't care...the call happened contrary to your belief.

By the way, find the section in the Official Rules of Major League baseball that allow for the crew to get together and change a judgement call.

Good night ladies.