Pulled Foot - A first

[WindyCityBlue]

I will address this to those of you who can read...

I made it perfectly clear that it is conferring with your partners to correct a JUDGEMENT CALL or RULE INTERPRETATION is acceptable and the right thing to do. We see examples of this at the CWS and almost every week in MLB. Fan interference, foul balls, dropped catches and balks are all examples of calls that lead to these issues. This post began witha pulled foot and has moved away.

I worked an American Legion State Championship last year that had a play over ruled. One of my partners (6 man) called a balk because the kid turned his shoulder toward first to check the runner. He is a terrific umpire and works a lot of high school baseball. As we know, his call was wrong. I was crew chief and asked him what he saw. He explained and I told him that Legion ball is governed by the American League version of OBR. He made a mistake and agreed that we need to reverse it. We took heat from the fans and one coach road him hard the rest of the game, BUT WE GOT IT RIGHT.

Sure we do our best, but we mess up and it is up to us as ambassadors of the game to get the call right. Baseball is a sport that allows for appeals and assistance. I'm not asking anyone to hesitate or second guess a partner. I teach my clinicians that it is imperative that you get the call right. I am certain that I have gotten many calls wrong over the years. But, I can sleep at night because I was big enough to have my call corrected or diligent enough to correct my partner's erroneous call. Despite what many think, you get to work at this level because of the way you treat the game. There's plenty of time to sooth egos over a beer after the game. And yes, I've been the one that has had to buy the beer because of a bad call.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I will address this to those of you who can read...

I made it perfectly clear that it is conferring with your partners to correct a JUDGEMENT CALL or RULE INTERPRETATION is acceptable and the right thing to do. We see examples of this at the CWS and almost every week in MLB. Fan interference, foul balls, dropped catches and balks are all examples of calls that lead to these issues. This post began witha pulled foot and has moved away.

All those situations have 4 umpires on a game and where it is possible for more than on umpire to see many things to help with those kind of calls. But I have never seen an umpire call a balk, then his partner from another position change a call. I could be wrong, but I have never seen it happen. I am sure it has happen, but what happen to thoses that changed it?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I worked an American Legion State Championship last year that had a play over ruled. One of my partners (6 man) called a balk because the kid turned his shoulder toward first to check the runner. He is a terrific umpire and works a lot of high school baseball. As we know, his call was wrong. I was crew chief and asked him what he saw. He explained and I told him that Legion ball is governed by the American League version of OBR. He made a mistake and agreed that we need to reverse it. We took heat from the fans and one coach road him hard the rest of the game, BUT WE GOT IT RIGHT.

OK, this is a rules situation. I can agree with your changing the call there. But if we are working a HS playoff game and I call a balk because the pitcher did not come to a discernable stop and you come to me and tell me, "he stopped," you will not have to worry about the coach. I can guarantee you that.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Sure we do our best, but we mess up and it is up to us as ambassadors of the game to get the call right. Baseball is a sport that allows for appeals and assistance.

All sports has those situations in place. But you still have to trust your partner and let them earn their paycheck and do their job. There is a reason we have different coverage areas and responsibilities. If you cannot handle that, maybe you need to do the game by yourself, so that every call can be made by yourself.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I'm not asking anyone to hesitate or second guess a partner. I teach my clinicians that it is imperative that you get the call right. I am certain that I have gotten many calls wrong over the years. But, I can sleep at night because I was big enough to have my call corrected or diligent enough to correct my partner's erroneous call.

Well, you are not a clinician at any camp I have attended. And you claim to not be the head clinician of the IHSA, so I know they are not teaching that philosophy. I could be totally wrong, but I have never heard anyone suggest what you are saying.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Despite what many think, you get to work at this level because of the way you treat the game. There's plenty of time to sooth egos over a beer after the game. And yes, I've been the one that has had to buy the beer because of a bad call.

You sure you never had someone trying to black your eye for those stunts?

Peace

[GarthB]

But I have never seen an umpire call a balk, then his partner from another position change a call. I could be wrong, but I have never seen it happen. I am sure it has happen, but what happen to thoses that changed it?

Last year, BU calls balk and tells coach, loud enough for PU to hear, "Didn't come set." Well he was in the middle of a pick-off move at the time, so PU goes out and they chat. BU then changes his call. No problems the rest of the game.




OK, this is a rules situation. I can agree with your changing the call there. But if we are working a HS playoff game and I call a balk because the pitcher did not come to a discernable stop and you come to me and tell me, "he stopped," you will not have to worry about the coach. I can guarantee you that.

You have apparently confused "a judgment call" with "every judgment call".

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB
You have apparently confused "a judgment call" with "every judgment call".

No Garth.

If you want to change a Balk call your partner makes (which is not based on a misapplication of the rules). Then you should be able to change a tag play at second bases as the PU. Change a ball to a strike as the BU. Change a checked swing call, when you are not asked. Because the responsiblity is to "get it right?" So why stop at just one call, change them all if you need to.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I will address this to those of you who can read...

I made it perfectly clear that it is conferring with your partners to correct a JUDGEMENT CALL or RULE INTERPRETATION is acceptable and the right thing to do. We see examples of this at the CWS and almost every week in MLB. Fan interference, foul balls, dropped catches and balks are all examples of calls that lead to these issues. This post began witha pulled foot and has moved away.

I worked an American Legion State Championship last year that had a play over ruled. One of my partners (6 man) called a balk because the kid turned his shoulder toward first to check the runner. He is a terrific umpire and works a lot of high school baseball. As we know, his call was wrong. I was crew chief and asked him what he saw. He explained and I told him that Legion ball is governed by the American League version of OBR. He made a mistake and agreed that we need to reverse it. We took heat from the fans and one coach road him hard the rest of the game, BUT WE GOT IT RIGHT.

Sure we do our best, but we mess up and it is up to us as ambassadors of the game to get the call right. Baseball is a sport that allows for appeals and assistance. I'm not asking anyone to hesitate or second guess a partner. I teach my clinicians that it is imperative that you get the call right. I am certain that I have gotten many calls wrong over the years. But, I can sleep at night because I was big enough to have my call corrected or diligent enough to correct my partner's erroneous call. Despite what many think, you get to work at this level because of the way you treat the game. There's plenty of time to sooth egos over a beer after the game. And yes, I've been the one that has had to buy the beer because of a bad call.

Your examples are ones where I would have no problems talking with a crew. But consult with a partner over a pulled foot or swipe tag when I worked hard to get in position and I'm certain I saw what happened? Doubtful.

Now, if I get screened? I had a play in the MSBL World Series a few years ago where I came across from C to make a call on a play at first base. Just in time for the money shot, a fielder runs right across my field of vision and I have no freaking idea what happened. Fortunately I saw my partner in the corner of my eye and was able to get help. My safe call would've been a horrible one, but if my partner wasn't in position to help it would've been the only one I could 've made after weighing all the other evidence.

Experienced umpires know when to ask for help and when not to. Most umpires either never ask for help or will ask for help all the time. Neither is appropriate in today's game. If you're finding yourself wanting to ask on a routine play (and most situations, even pulled feet and swipe tags, are routine), you ought to consider your mechanics and your effort.

--Rich

[GarthB]

Originally posted by JRutledge

No Garth.

If you want to change a Balk call your partner makes (which is not based on a misapplication of the rules). Then you should be able to change a tag play at second bases as the PU. Change a ball to a strike as the BU. Change a checked swing call, when you are not asked. Because the responsiblity is to "get it right?" So why stop at just one call, change them all if you need to.

Peace

Never said I wanted to change ANY call my partner made. I game an example of one umpire providing information to another that led to the ruling umpire to change his own call.

One problem with "slippery slope" arguments like the one you make is that they are often, as in this case, based on ridiculous exaggerations of a point that was never intended to be that encompassing. My logics professor referred to it as arguments of the absurd that poeple fall back on when they either can't make their own point within realistic bounds or have no substantiating data.

Instead of altering others' points, address them as made, either pro or con, doesn't matter. Just don't feel so free to put words in others' mouths. Unless of course you're auditioning for a writing gig at officiating.com

[WindyCityBlue]

Rich and Garth...Thank you for reading and understanding the point being made. Even the most accomplished officials at the highest level get together and reverse calls when necessary.

Rut -
If you want to change a Balk call your partner makes (which is not based on a misapplication of the rules). Then you should be able to change a tag play at second bases as the PU.

Wow, you must have been at the Sectional Semifinal at New Trier this year. That play actually happened. The base ump called a guy safe, even though he was straightlined. The plate ump had come up to follow the batter into first and saw that the kid was stopped a foot away. The defensive coach went nuts and asked for help. They got together and got the call right. Did it look awful?...yep. Did they do the right thing?...yep. Was the state executive adminstrator there?...yep. He applauded the fact that they worked together to get it right and they will get Sectionals next year because they proved that they are not bigger than the game.

You seem to be hung up on things we have never even discussed here. I offer erroneous fair balls, bad catches, pulled feet and bad balks and you come back with ckeck swings and strikes. Try to argue the same issue.

You claim not care about my opinion, but you've posted a half*assed reply to each and every one. You also claim not to care about my credentials, but then challenge them at every turn. Get a hobby because giving umpiring advice is not your strong suit.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB


Never said I wanted to change ANY call my partner made. I game an example of one umpire providing information to another that led to the ruling umpire to change his own call.

Well, if I have to have you do this, what the hell was I doing on the play?

Originally posted by GarthB
One problem with "slippery slope" arguments like the one you make is that they are often, as in this case, based on ridiculous exaggerations of a point that was never intended to be that encompassing. My logics professor referred to it as arguments of the absurd that poeple fall back on when they either can't make their own point within realistic bounds or have no substantiating data.

This is not a "slippery slope" argument. You said to "get the call right." If you have to get the call right, when are you going to just let your partners work the game? Do you not have responsibilities to worry about? So you are always watching what they see and their positioning? I only gave an example of the balk because Windy brought it up. He said you should change a balk call so that you "get it right." I only talked about that situation because it was mentioned. I would have never imagined a balk call was the same as a pulled foot or dropped ball. But it was for some reason.

Originally posted by GarthB
Instead of altering others' points, address them as made, either pro or con, doesn't matter. Just don't feel so free to put words in others' mouths. Unless of course you're auditioning for a writing gig at officiating.com

Join the party. Guys like you do this to me all the time. You change the points I make. You exaggerate my philosophies and my values that I hold. You even exaggerate things I have claimed and things I have done.

I took your example (Windy's at least) and applied it to other situations that we could change. If getting it right is the most important thing, then you should not have boundaries on when you use that philsophy. I am not saying this is a slippery slope, I am saying why just stop at balks? No matter what the call, you should change a call, because you feel that your judgment is better than your partner's.

But then again, I am the idiot, the moron and stupid as hell. But you guys want to call everything all over the field to "get it right." Well I live by the philosophy to "trust my partners." I think there is a reason they are there. There is a reason they have to watch things I do not. There is a reason we are considered a team. It is not my job to do his job and for him to do mine. It is our job to work together. When we work together, I might ask for help. But if I am all over it, I do not need help. And if I cannot get in position to make most calls on pulled feet and dropped balls, what the hell am I looking at? That is what I am looking for. And maybe there was a pulled foot, but he got in on the base in time to have an out.

Peace

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

The base ump called a guy safe, even though he was straightlined. The plate ump had come up to follow the batter into first and saw that the kid was stopped a foot away. The defensive coach went nuts and asked for help. They got together and got the call right. Did it look awful?...yep. Did they do the right thing?...yep. Was the state executive adminstrator there?...yep. He applauded the fact that they worked together to get it right and they will get Sectionals next year because they proved that they are not bigger than the game.

Windy I hear you but my question when does it end?

Most of us have had those games where just about every call was close both at first, the steal attempts, runner(s) tagging from second/third and advancing, etc.

Once you set a precedent by going to your partner the FIRST time, what's going to happen on calls thereafter? If it's one of those games and you change your call on one particular play the coaches will be all over you to CONSTANTLY get help.

It's like doing the dish and the coach is constantly asking us "Where was that one blue" We are not going to allow that to continue the rest of the game.

Also, there will be times when our partner Can't help us - Then what. If you are going to ask for help I still prefer to do it BEFORE a call was made. IMO, it looks good and the results are better.

What I can't undertsand is if the BU does in fact need more info before making the call, why not ask it before he/she makes the call. It's simple "Hey Tom was his / her foot on the bag" Tom: "yes/or no" then we make the call. It looks good and accomplishes the same goal without coaches Constantly on our backs.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

Rut claimed: You said to "get the call right."

No I didn't. You can't find that in anything I wrote. Go ahead and look. We'll wait.

Finished? Find it? Of course not.

Please don't make things up and attribute them to me.

Despite what you think I am not the type of umpire that goes for help. But when asked, if I have something that could be of help, I provide it.

You have either become paranoid, can't read very well or just like to make things up. Maybe we have confused you with so many people posting here. I'll make it simpler for you, I'm out of this thread.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Change a checked swing call, when you are not asked.

This is sometimes the correct mechanic.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
You claim not care about my opinion, but you've posted a half*assed reply to each and every one. You also claim not to care about my credentials, but then challenge them at every turn. Get a hobby because giving umpiring advice is not your strong suit.

I think you need to mind your own ****ing business. For one, we do not have to agree. Your way is certainly not the way many individuals I respect would even dare to do. Why, because they feel their partner is just as important as they are. If you do not agree with my advice, do what you feel is best. Because the last time I checked, I have never know every umpire or official to agree with ever practice. That is clear with all the discussions about indicators, drawing lines in the sand and how to handle coach ejections. It is clear that many from different levels and the same levels do not always agree. I do not care what advice any one takes into account. That is their decision. But if you are working with me, you better dare not change any calls I make when it is based on judgment. If I need help, I have been doing this long enough to know when to ask. If I see the entire play, I will make a decision. Have I made mistakes over the years? We all have. I made a couple this year I was not happy with. I have asked for help a few times when I was not sure on a play. I have also not asked for help, because I had a lazy partner standing behind home plate or misread a play and had their back turned. But I have also had some plays that I thought were complete wrong and I did nothing, because I was never asked. I even asked that very question here, and I cannot remember one person telling me, "you should have changed his call."

If you do not like the advice or the things I say, take the advice of everyone else that you feel fits your point of view. But because I have gone to many camps and heard many clinicians speak, and it is very common to hear umpires and officials at the very same level, handle the very same situation differently. Or at the very least, not agree on the procedure to practice. Maybe you need to take up another sport, so you can get some perspective. Because what I suggest does not just apply to baseball only. There is a reason Referee Magazine and I am sure this place has articles that are about officiating as a whole, not just sports specific issues. And this is not just about a baseball philosophy.

Peace

[rmstone]

Both of you are blowing everything out of proportion... but the main BOGUS argument is that all judgement calls are hte same and this idea if you change a call you have to change them all! You can keep arguing that, but no one has ever said that...

Hes only saying that in the right situation it can be OK to change one... changing his argument into "well that means you have to change all the ball and strike calls from the field" is just an absurd arugment...

More argument problems:

"Well, if I have to have you do this, what the hell was I doing on the play?"
-Ok so you get them all right and see everything all the time? Must be nice...

"So you are always watching what they see and their positioning?"
-Nope, another bad argument... but if I am watching and see something different from my angle.....

"No matter what the call, you should change a call"
-He never said that

"because you feel that your judgment is better than your partner's."
-No one said that either... I'm not sure what your arguing but it doesn't have much to do with what we're talking about... no one said change a call because you think your a better judge... he said change it if we see something different that could influence the call.

"But you guys want to call everything all over the field to "get it right.""
-Didn't say that either, again ONE turned into ALL

"And if I cannot get in position to make most calls on pulled feet and dropped balls, what the hell am I looking at?"
-Can you teach me how to get into this "perfect" position to see everything that could possibly happen? If theres a close tag play at second and the fielder rolls towards the left side and the ball falls out, the 3rd base ump sees it fall out, then the player grabs the ball back in his glove first, did I miss the call for being out of position? Should I have knocked the player over to see if the ball was on the ground or not?

These arguments are pretty bad statements... but I agree that your both blowing it out of proportion on both sides of it...

[JRutledge]

rmstone,

I cannot speak for you, but even when I am all over the play, I have had coaches say I got them wrong.

I had a play this year when I was the BU and there was a runner trying to steal second. The throw was up the baseline toward first base and the throw clearly beat the runner and the fielder made a tag on the shoulder on a feet first slide. The coach complained and made the claim that his runner was safe, because of where the tag was made on his runner. Now I was right there. I clearly saw the entire place and the play was not really close. He even asked for help from my partner. So on a play like that, should my partner come in and tell me what he saw? What if there was a dropped ball? What if the ball being dropped was on a transfer to make a throw, not while making the tag?

Of course I do not get all calls right, but when I am in position, it is not my partner's job to come and tell me when I made a decision. It is not the time to "get it right." It is not the time to get help if I have made a call. This is the premise of the opposition's argument. If that is what side you see, do it that way. I am not going to. It has worked fine for me all these years, I am not going to change because someone on the internet thinks it is a good idea.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

Pete, Bob, rmstone...I appreciate your insight and your discussion has been lucid.

The ONLY thing I have tried to argue from the beginning is
WE ARE OBLIGATED TO GET THE CALL RIGHT.
We don't have the luxury of instant replay, but we usually have one or more partners. Yes, I trust their judgement but we do get them wrong occassionally. On the pro fields and courts, we are seeing pride put aside and they get the call right.

I don't know where it will end, Pete. I do know that the calls we are seeing in the sports highlights show a need for this scrutiny though. They have experimented with lasers and cameras at the plate and foul lines for years. Until they perfect them, we will be stuck with some tough calls and the need to change them occassionally.

I agreee that we have strayed from the original point and that some will never agree. I will end this discussion and know that at some levels of baseball, you are expected to make mistakes.

My mistake was to argue logically with Rut...again. He did make a good point though. If we ever found ourselves on the same field and I had to change his call, it would never happen again. Because where I work, the coaches won't ask him back.