Pulled Foot - A first

[rmstone]

"we may as well let the coaches take care of the calls and we'll sit on the side lines."

Can we do that? Sounds good to me, do I still get paid?

This is funny cause you all get really bent out of shape over this... but your blowing it way out of proportion. NO ONE in any post so far has argued that "every call should be discussed" or you must "get every call right."

I'm not an apocalyptic, doomsday umpire that is trying to destroy baseball.

Put simply my argument is: no one should read the first post and say "NO!!! THE END IS COMMING!" I'm simply saying that there are rare situations where it is OK to ask for help! Not on every call, not every other call... I'm simply saying there are times when its ok. This has happened on TV twice and you all act like we should all start changing ALL out calls.

I'm gonna shut up now

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rmstone
"we may as well let the coaches take care of the calls and we'll sit on the side lines."

Can we do that? Sounds good to me, do I still get paid?

This is funny cause you all get really bent out of shape over this... but your blowing it way out of proportion. NO ONE in any post so far has argued that "every call should be discussed" or you must "get every call right."

I'm not an apocalyptic, doomsday umpire that is trying to destroy baseball.

Put simply my argument is: no one should read the first post and say "NO!!! THE END IS COMMING!" I'm simply saying that there are rare situations where it is OK to ask for help! Not on every call, not every other call... I'm simply saying there are times when its ok. This has happened on TV twice and you all act like we should all start changing ALL out calls.

I'm gonna shut up now

You can put words in the mouths of those that disagree with you, like so many here. But the reality is that the world is not going to end one way or another if we get a call wrong either. Getting it right is not the most important thing in my opinion. If my partner makes a call, who am I to change it? Who am I to tell my partner, that is suppose to make that call, I had a better look at it? There is a reason we do not change balls and strike calls. There should be a similar reason we do not change judgment calls either. If my partner needs help to make a decision, I will give help when he asks me. But I am not coming to someone to make a call I clearly have decided.

Now where you could cause some chaos, is when every call gets questioned because you are changing calls. How far are we going to take this? Because do not think a coach will not try to get you to change more calls when you go down that road. This is the very reason this coach was dumped in the game. We get paid to make judgment calls. Sometimes they are going to be wrong. And if he is watching his partner, what is he missing?

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

Let me remind you all, that a judgement call means in my judgement! Yes I am there to get the calls right but that is for the rules (OBS, INTF, BOO and things like that).

So you only get paid for interpreting the rules, not your judgement. Cool gig!

Help to make that judgement is one thing but when we start reversing judgement calls left and right, we may as well let the coaches take care of the calls and we'll sit on the side lines.

Talk about a need for de-caf...
Take a step back and realize that we are not questioning YOUR judgement here. The premise for this discussion is to recognize the need to get the call right. I can be out of position, blocked or just didn't get a good look at the play - it happens. I can and do ask for help and would rather look bad than penalize the player. We get paid to make the game fair, if your ego won't allow you to change your call when your partner clearly saw the ball hit the ground or the foot come off the bag, then you should stop taking the money . Most players begin their season long before we get out gear out of storage. They deserve to get it right.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

The premise for this discussion is to recognize the need to get the call right. I can be out of position, blocked or just didn't get a good look at the play - it happens. I can and do ask for help and would rather look bad than penalize the player. We get paid to make the game fair, if your ego won't allow you to change your call when your partner clearly saw the ball hit the ground or the foot come off the bag, then you should stop taking the money .

Windy first off who said baseball is Fair. We are there not to make the game Fair but are there to make certain one side does not gain an unfair advantage not intended by the rules.

One of these days here is what is going to happen concerning this pulled foot business.

2 outs r3. Ground ball to anyone doesn't matter who tosses to F3 to get the BR. F3 catches ball sees R3 dart for home but Blue says OUT. Since the 3rd out was made by the BR before he/she reached first base safely NO runs score. However, wait a minute

Now the offensive manager comes out and says to Blue "Hey F3's foot was off the bag" Now you confer with the PU and the PU agrees F3's foot was indeed off the bag - Now what

If you overturn the call, R3 scores - game Over, but if U1 would have ruled safe to begin with F3 would have fired to F2 to try and get R3, therefore, how is this overturn of the pulled foot fair?

In summary, I would say that if the play INVOLVES a continuous type action EVENT, then right or wrong the umpire has to LIVE with the call because there are simply too many variables to overcome when trying to reverse. If the play ONLY involves the one runner then I say Ok do your best to get it right.

Keep in mind that no matter what we do mistakes will be made - it's called the Human element.

Pete Booth

[Rich]

The slippery slope here isn't in the asking for help or even the overturning of calls.

In my mind, the problem is when the base umpires think that there's no reason to hustle across from C -- hell, if there's something weird on the play we'll just ask the plate umpire!

Nonsense.

I worked a HS game last season with a guy who likes to work in "C-minus." because he doesn't look over his shoulder to read R2 stealing third and he's almost in the right spot to make the call there. Grounder to F6, throw across, he doesn't even move. Then he points to me when there's a swipe tag. Only problem is I'm looking at R3 touch the plate when the play happens at first. THAT'S my job.

Hustle, proper read of the ball, and proper mechanics gets you to the right spot to see the feet and the tag, if one happens. I have no problem telling a coach to pound sand when I work hard to get in position and make the call I'm paid to make.

--Rich

[WindyCityBlue]

Two columns for the price of one...

JRutledge
Senior Member

Are we going to change balk to not a balk?

Yes, if you or your partner indavertantly called a balk, you correct it. Got it???


Getting the call right should not be the main focus when we have already made a judgment call. You need to make them and live with them. If we messed up, we messed up. It will not be the last time that happens.

Getting the call right should be your ONLY focus, judgement or rule interp. And yes, I agree that if you mess up displaying your judgement, you should live with the ramifications. Your belief that you make a call and that's it, is horrible advice.

Peter Booth -

Your example was good - but I'll give you my answer. If my partner called him out and the foot was off the bag AND I saw it AND the offensive coach asked him to get help, I would tell him what I saw and make the correct call. I don't have money on the game. I don't care if the other coach goes bananas. It was the right call. Are you the judge of which coach's complaining is more justified? No! No matter what call gets made, one coach is going to be pissed - the guy who's kid got jobbed or the defensive guy because his kids lost because of an error on F3.

This is a tough call, no doubt. George Brett had a home run taken away because of a bat that didn't meet specs. That was a tough call, but the umpire had a pair and enforced the rules...fairly. If you can't make your game fair for both sides, give the money back.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Two columns for the price of one...
JRutledge
Senior Member

Are we going to change balk to not a balk?

Yes, if you or your partner indavertantly called a balk, you correct it. Got it???

What if you have a judgment call? You going to tell your partner that what he considered was a balk, was not because you say so? If you do, you might have to throw out more than the coach if it was me.

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Getting the call right should be your ONLY focus, judgement or rule interp. And yes, I agree that if you mess up displaying your judgement, you should live with the ramifications. Your belief that you make a call and that's it, is horrible advice.

Of course it is your ONLY focus when you are getting in position and taking your time to make a call. But after you make a call, I am not asking for help or asking my partner what they saw, when I was all over the call.

I never said I have a call that is it, but I know when to ask for help. And there are many calls that I am sticking to. My partner might not even be looking. If I know that, it is not there job to "bail me out." And that is what we are talking about. We are not talking about sticking to a call just to stick to a call. We are talking about the proper procedure to ask for help. In my opinion, this is was not it.

And the last time I checked, I did not care what you think of my advice. Anyone has the right to do what they feel is correct and how they should handle these type of situations. And I do not need a speech about what you do at the Minor Leagues, because most of us do not care or agree with everything that goes on there.

Peace

[WindyCityBlue]

What if you have a judgment call? You going to tell your partner that what he considered was a balk, was not because you say so?

Yes, if he calls something that clearly was incorrect, I have done that. In fact, I have taught the balk clinic for two major college umpiring associations. But then again, I only work baseball, Therefore I can focus on doing one thing very well, not three half-a**ed

If you do, you might have to throw out more than the coach if it was me.
That would be fine, since one coach wouldn't want you on the field after making a horsesh*t call. I get the call right and get rid of two headaches. They don't call balks in T-ball though, so we probably won't share a field anytime soon.

Your ego has gotten the best of you. You are arguing mechanics with someone that has far more knowledge and infinitely more concern for the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue


Yes, if he calls something that clearly was incorrect, I have done that. In fact, I have taught the balk clinic for two major college umpiring associations. But then again, I only work baseball, Therefore I can focus on doing one thing very well, not three half-a**ed

I do not care what you have taught. The question was not what you taught, the question was what do you do if you disagree with the call? Are you going to change the call that your partner made, because you feel they have kicked it?

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Your ego has gotten the best of you. You are arguing mechanics with someone that has far more knowledge and infinitely more concern for the game.

My ego has gotten the best of me? You are not even answering the question. All you can say is what you have done and what you have taught? I am not asking you anything about your resume, I want an answer about what you are going to do and why? I think your ego has gotten way out of hand if you believe that everyone thinks the same thing. Even in my other sports, very successful officials disagree on procedure and practice. That is very common. Your opinion I am sure is not the only one out there. And I can think of an umpire that has worked the very same ball you claim to work and would not see it your way.

Peace

[LDUB]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
What if you have a judgment call? You going to tell your partner that what he considered was a balk, was not because you say so?

Yes, if he calls something that clearly was incorrect, I have done that. In fact, I have taught the balk clinic for two major college umpiring associations. But then again, I only work baseball, Therefore I can focus on doing one thing very well, not three half-a**ed

Something that is clearly incorrect sounds like more of a rules issue than a judgement issue to me. Lets say the game is played under OBR. F1 attempts a pick off at third from the windup. Your partner the BU calls a balk. I agree with you, you should go out to him and tell him that that is a FED rule. Change the call to no balk.

But if it is a judgement call, then there is nothing you can do about it. F1 pitches and BU calls a balk. He says that F1 did not come to a stop. But you thought that he did stop. Even though it was obvious to you that he did stop, you are stuck with your partner's call. If you go out there and talk to him. Nothing is going to be worked out. He says it was a balk, you say no balk.

It looks to me like you have confused judgement mistake, and a rules mistake.

[JRutledge]

LDUB,

That is exactly my point. I cannot believe "Mr. Big Dog" is going to change a judgment call of a fellow umpire just because he disagrees with it. He is never going to convince me that is acceptable. But then again, he has that reputation in our area and many do not like to work with him.

I wonder why?

Peace

[DG]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
I was watching ESPN this week where they show their top 10 Bloopers so to speak. One of them involved a Minor lague baseball game (I apologize as I can't remember the teams) and it involved what else the play at first. Was the foot on the bag or not?

In this particular case U1 ruled SAFE. The defensive manager came out and questioned the call. U1 got together with the PU and the call was changed to out (The correct call BTW). The Offensive manager went ballistic and did his Lou Pinella type antics which is the main reason this particular clip aired on ESPN to begin with.

So with all this talk we hear about not going to your partner, sticking with the call, etc. it seems that both Minor League and Major League umpires disagree. We have already seen Mr. Maclelland over-turn Garcia.

So here's my point, since MLB and affiliates are starting or have started depending on how you look at it to change calls that one would think couldn't, are we bound to do the same? after all many if not most think the game should be called the way they see it on TV.

Pete Booth

Until I am put under the same pressures (and corresonding pay) of a Major League umpire, and the replay cameras that often judge them I will continue to call em like I see em, or ask my partner for help, but once called it's called, and no amount of dirt kicking will change it.

[jicecone]

Before we go on for another 4 pages arguing about the times when calls should NOT be changed, at the very begining of this post I stated that this should not be taking to absurdity. However there seems to be a few here that either don't understand that word, don't umpire anything past LL or have ego's that are bigger than the game they are officiating.

IN GAMES WHERE THE PLAYERs SHAVE, usually the partner Im working with would NEVER , NEVER question another officials judgement on calls like a balk. Why, because they have the knowledge and ability to be officiating that game in the first place.

By the same token they also have the intelligence to know how and when to ask for help in certain situations. In those rare, rare times when you need to correct a call, I have only once had it questioned. My reply, "Coach, is the problem that we changed the call or that we got it correct?"
He walked back to the dugout.

We can ALL think of situations where changing the call is not in the best intrest of the contest your officiating but, thoses are NOT the calls that are being discussed here. How about this, Get it right when you Can!

[WindyCityBlue]

jicecone -
That's exactly my point - get the call right. We were taught that the best way to solve a controversial call was to say, "Skip, we get paid to get them right...we just did."

Rut and Luke,

Apparently I wasn't clear when I said that I have changed BOTH judgement and rule questions with my partners over the years. I have also had calls changed when I was younger and learning. You are obligated to get the call right. I'm sorry that you don't feel compelled to overrule your partner (after conferring with him/her) when he calls an erroneous balk, a catch or rules a ball fair or foul (ALL JUDGEMENT CALLS!) Our professional brethren have no problem checking their egos anymore. They get the call right, even when one of their own f*ck up. If you want to hang a younger umpire because he blows a call, then the wrong umpire is getting yelled at on the field. We all make mistakes, our job is to correct the ones that put a team at jeopardy and make the game unfair. It's admitting that you are wrong, which we all know is very hard for some of us to do.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Jun 29th, 2004 at 10:56 AM]

[JRutledge]

Windy,

I realize you do not want to hear this, but in other sports there are many calls you never question. If I call a foul call in basketball, my partner cannot come to me and tell me "it was not a foul." No different than a balk call in baseball or any judgment call. And in basketball we have brain farts and just screw up. But we talk about it after the game, not go and tell them they screwed up then.

I agree if the call is a total misunderstanding of the rules (OBR and FED difference). But to tell us that you are the BU and your partner the PU sees something different, you are going to change that call? Now that is ego run wild. Your partner gets paid too. They are allowed to make judgment calls without your approval. I am not talking about obvious dropped balls on a force play. I am not talking about giving a runner the wrong base on a ball thrown in dead ball territory. I am talking about judgment balk calls or judgment safe/out calls here. All the years I have worked baseball in this state and in this area, I have never heard anyone suggest this is the proper thing to do. If you are teaching all over the country, you surely are not teaching that crap here. Because all the name dropping you have done over this time of year, I have never heard any of them suggest changing a balk call or any call for that matter that is clearly a judgement call.

Just another example of how full of it you are and how your experience does not mean a damn thing to me. Because if that is what they are teaching at that level, I surely want to stay as far away from it as possible.

Peace