What The F*ck Ump?

[DG]

Originally posted by whistleone

Am I the only one that finds this comment totally inappropriate?

No, you have to weed out the bullsh*t on this site. There are few crackerjacks at slinging it on here.

Don't shake hands with coaches after games. If the practice in this league is to leave baseballs at the field, then I leave them near home plate, on the ground, where I dumped them from my bag when I vacated the premises. Somebody will pick them up. I make best effort to just vanish after a game, even if it is one I don't expect to hear any bull from either side. Poof, I'm gone.

[Edited by DG on Jun 7th, 2004 at 11:08 PM]

[MarionTiger]

Well, I AM new to this board, and have not officiated in several years.

I think you guys are being way to harsh on LDUB.

As a coach, I make a point of shaking the Umpire's hand before he leaves no matter how inept he or she was that day. It's like work...when the game is over, we're all adults. If it was a good game in my opinion, then I say so. If not, I just say thanks...and I mean it.

I also think it is very important for the kids, especially the little ones, to see coaches and umpires reconcile (well, that kind of implies arguing, which shouldn't happen either) after the game to show good sportsmanship.

After reading some of your posts...if officiating is so thankless and even hostile for you that you have to throw balls on the ground and run to your car, then you need to find a new league or get some support from the league administrators. You shouldn't have to do that. Just my 2 cents...I'm sure I will now be flamed.

[DG]

Originally posted by MarionTiger
Well, I AM new to this board, and have not officiated in several years.

I think you guys are being way to harsh on LDUB.

As a coach, I make a point of shaking the Umpire's hand before he leaves no matter how inept he or she was that day. It's like work...when the game is over, we're all adults. If it was a good game in my opinion, then I say so. If not, I just say thanks...and I mean it.

I also think it is very important for the kids, especially the little ones, to see coaches and umpires reconcile (well, that kind of implies arguing, which shouldn't happen either) after the game to show good sportsmanship.

After reading some of your posts...if officiating is so thankless and even hostile for you that you have to throw balls on the ground and run to your car, then you need to find a new league or get some support from the league administrators. You shouldn't have to do that. Just my 2 cents...I'm sure I will now be flamed.

No flames from me, you are entitled to your opinion. It entirely depends on the league, and the game. I work one league where the coaches are very reasonable adults and there is very little conflict during or after games. I see no reason not to speak to these guys after or during games, especially if spoken to. I have also worked games that, when it is over, it is best to toss any remaining baseballs on the ground towards the home dugout, and vanish. I never run to the car.

[sir_eldren]

Originally posted by PAT THE REF
Here was the story:
Team A was in the lead by 4 runs. Team B was up too bat. Top of the 5th. (We play 6 innings) Two out - no one on. Team B's batter hits the ball but only lets it go about 15 feet. The pitcher picks up the ball. The batter starts walking down the 1st base line. The pitcher walks down towards 1st base. The pitcher starts skipping (literally). The batter then runs like anything to 1st base. The 1st baseman was standing on the base waiting for the pitcher to throw the ball. The pitcher thinks he can out run the batter so he runs. The batter is at least 1-2 steps safe. Then the pitchers foot hits the base. I call & sell the safe signal. (Now the "fun" begins).

Interesting situation.

I'm a stickler for sportsmanship. I love passing out minor penalties in for Unsportsmanlike Conduct and Misconducts for the like in hockey games. It sends really big messages to the players that I'm the MF in charge of judging the game. I take the field the same way, too.

I'd have not only called the kid who ran safe, I'd have called him safe on principle and then tossed the pitcher for making a travesty of the game. Plain and simple. I never played baseball, but there's a certain amount of respect that one has to have for the game and for the other participants. The pitcher had an obligation to the play the game the right way and throw the ball to the first baseman. I will not tolerate "Superman" attitudes like that on my field.

Of course, that does mean that I'd have to turn around immediately and toss the coach, but who cares. It's obvious he's a worthless coach or he'd instill a sense of respect for the game in his players.

-Craig

[jicecone]

Originally posted by sir_eldren

Interesting situation.

I'm a stickler for sportsmanship. I love passing out minor penalties in for Unsportsmanlike Conduct and Misconducts for the like in hockey games. It sends really big messages to the players that I'm the MF in charge of judging the game. I take the field the same way, too.

I'd have not only called the kid who ran safe, I'd have called him safe on principle and then tossed the pitcher for making a travesty of the game. Plain and simple. I never played baseball, but there's a certain amount of respect that one has to have for the game and for the other participants. The pitcher had an obligation to the play the game the right way and throw the ball to the first baseman. I will not tolerate "Superman" attitudes like that on my field.

Of course, that does mean that I'd have to turn around immediately and toss the coach, but who cares. It's obvious he's a worthless coach or he'd instill a sense of respect for the game in his players.

-Craig

Well, Im glad I don't officiate my only two sports (Hockey & Baseball)with your "Superman" Officiating Attitude. If you don't like the way people play the game do all of us a favor and don't officiate the sport.

Mabey you should read the other thread written about officials with an attitude, because your certainly a candidate for that award.

It is one thing to have a big EGO, know the rules and know when to apply them during the contest. It is totally another thing to go on the field or ice with this "Holier-Than-Thou, Everybody-Come-Watch-Me-Officiate attitude.

"It's obvious he's a worthless coach or he'd instill a sense of respect for the game in his players."

You, have a personal problem.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kaliix


To Dan_ref and ace, you guys can take your petty little name calling games back over to the basketball side. You might notice that except for a marginal post by his high holiness (I thought you could have been a bit nicer) everyone here generally stayed away from all the condesending, judgemental, name calling cr*p you guys use as standard procedure on the other side.

I agree. Those two are out of line. Tsk,tsk,tsk.

As an umpire, Kaliix, how would you personally handle a coach of, say, an Under 12 baseball team that constantly "worked" the umpiring crew? By "worked", I mean constantly questioned calls with the view of getting other calls made in his favor. Exactly how much would you personally let that coach get away with, and what would you do about it?

I'm also wondering how the other umpires on this board view coaches deliberately "working" them- especially in the younger age groups, and what they'd do about it also.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by MarionTiger

As a coach, I make a point of shaking the Umpire's hand before he leaves no matter how inept he or she was that day. It's like work...when the game is over, we're all adults. If it was a good game in my opinion, then I say so. If not, I just say thanks...and I mean it.

I also think it is very important for the kids, especially the little ones, to see coaches and umpires reconcile (well, that kind of implies arguing, which shouldn't happen either) after the game to show good sportsmanship.

After reading some of your posts...if officiating is so thankless and even hostile for you that you have to throw balls on the ground and run to your car, then you need to find a new league or get some support from the league administrators. You shouldn't have to do that. Just my 2 cents...I'm sure I will now be flamed.

MarionTiger;

Carl has labeled me a curmudgeon. (He also gave me my moniker four years ago this month and I have used it with honor ever since.) Anyway, I regularly get on umpires about their mistakes. It's part of who I am (which is not a nice guy.) I am the same way on the field. Coaches generally are cool towards me. The upside of all this is that my games go very smoothly. I am known as a person to leave alone. If one wants his games to go smoothly, it is a good reputation to have.

Anyway, in my 5 or so years on various boards, I don't believe that I have ever flamed a coach. I save that for the baseball field. (OK, head case from Rhode Island, do a search of the archives and prove me wrong.)

As a matter of fact, I have written umpire articles directed at coaches for the paid part of this site. One of the long series that I wrote last year was a tutorial for coaches on how to successfully manipulate umpires. I did not win any umpires friends for that series. A long standing thesis of mine (which goes back to an article that I wrote in 1999 for ABUA) is that "coaches are smarter than umpires." That thesis has not won me any umpire friends either. I believe that the article is still available for viewing on the ABUA site.

Another long standing question in my mind is how umpires can be so sensitive on the anonymous Internet. Here they are day after day taking abuse up close and personal on a baseball field, and they come to the Internet and come unglued at an insult.

What gives with that? I believe in combat Internet umpiring in order to toughen up the greenhorns for the real combat of 9 inning umpiring on real baseball fields.

Your attitude towards umpires is so unusual that we umpires cannot afford to reciprocate. We are like policemen in that regard. We cannot afford to treat coaches as human beings because we never know which one will pull a "gun" on us.

However, in my writings, I am very charitable towards coaches. It is because coaches often give umpires better advice than they get from other umpires. In response to the problems outlined in this thread you wrote: "...then you need to find a new league or get some support from the league administrators."

I have often written that only league administrators can effect real reform in the way coaches behave. I have often urged umpires to quit umpiring in places known for bad behavior, for their own sake and the sake of their careers. Umpires are normally too stupid to take that advice. It's nice to hear the same advice from a coach.

Peter

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I agree. Those two are out of line. Tsk,tsk,tsk.

As an umpire, Kaliix, how would you personally handle a coach of, say, an Under 12 baseball team that constantly "worked" the umpiring crew? By "worked", I mean constantly questioned calls with the view of getting other calls made in his favor. Exactly how much would you personally let that coach get away with, and what would you do about it?

I'm also wondering how the other umpires on this board view coaches deliberately "working" them- especially in the younger age groups, and what they'd do about it also.

Under 12 baseball games usually have under experienced officials and under experienced coaches, and therein lies the problem. To some extent this happens in older games to. Depending upon the official , his experience, confidence and phase of the moon that day, you can get a plethra of opinions here.

Generally speaking, I put and end to it very early. MOST coaches find out their limits very early with me , when I'm tested. But if there is no need to insert myself, then you won't even know I was there. I have seen officials with years of experienced get totally crapped upon and others that toss people at the drop of a dime. I don't know if there is a receipt that can be used against this. All though many will tell you differently.

[Kaliix]

As an umpire, I've come to expect some comments from coaches. I'll usually get a "where was that blue?" or my personal favorite "Jones (catchers name), where was that?" If the catchers smart he'll say outside/low/etc.

Personally, I don't worry about the occasional comment. By occasional, I mean, once every two or three innings. I've even let it go twice in a inning, as long as it stops there. That is in regards to the occasional, "where was that blue?"

Now if the it gets anymore frequent than that, if I can wait until the half inning, coach and I have a friendly little chat, in which I nicely make it clear that the comments should stop.

If it can't wait till the half inning, as the comments continue, I call time and tell the coach that arguing balls and strikes is against the rules and that if the comments continue, he's going to have an early night. I say it firmly and with conviction, but respectfully as possible.

If the comments are personal, like "you suck blue!" or expletive laced, "That was shi%*y call!" then they are gone.

I have tried to warn first and so far it has worked. I have the advantage of having a command presence, an imposing physical stature and a friendly but take no crap attitude that has gone a long way towards keeping comments to a minimum.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I agree. Those two are out of line. Tsk,tsk,tsk.

As an umpire, Kaliix, how would you personally handle a coach of, say, an Under 12 baseball team that constantly "worked" the umpiring crew? By "worked", I mean constantly questioned calls with the view of getting other calls made in his favor. Exactly how much would you personally let that coach get away with, and what would you do about it?

I'm also wondering how the other umpires on this board view coaches deliberately "working" them- especially in the younger age groups, and what they'd do about it also.

[jumpmaster]

This thread has gone down the road of how to handle coaches and peoples feelings getting hurt...so because I love a good arguement, I will jump in with both feet...

Peter, internet umpiring (as opposed to actual umpiring which on occasion bore some remarkable resemblances to Iraq...) is not, has never, and will never even remotely similiar to combat. But you bring up a very GOOD point for all umpires to keep in mind. Our roles are similiar to police officers in that we never know when one of the coaches will turn on us and it is our responsibility to maintain order.

I have a good relationship with some of the coaches in the area. Call it mutual respect. But bottom line, every coach is loyal to HIS team first. We, as umpires, are not part of that team. We have our own team, our partner. When the $#!+ hits the fan, coach doesn't care about being buddy, buddy, coach cares about getting in your @$$. Your only back-up is your partner.

I don't shake hands with coaches, unless offered. I don't chit-chat with coaches. I have been approached in the parking lot with questions and I keep walking. But I always maintain my professionalism. I don't get or need to feel chummy with the coaches. That's why I am married...

[Rich]

Originally posted by MarionTiger
Well, I AM new to this board, and have not officiated in several years.

I think you guys are being way to harsh on LDUB.

As a coach, I make a point of shaking the Umpire's hand before he leaves no matter how inept he or she was that day. It's like work...when the game is over, we're all adults. If it was a good game in my opinion, then I say so. If not, I just say thanks...and I mean it.

I also think it is very important for the kids, especially the little ones, to see coaches and umpires reconcile (well, that kind of implies arguing, which shouldn't happen either) after the game to show good sportsmanship.

After reading some of your posts...if officiating is so thankless and even hostile for you that you have to throw balls on the ground and run to your car, then you need to find a new league or get some support from the league administrators. You shouldn't have to do that. Just my 2 cents...I'm sure I will now be flamed.

I don't throw balls on the ground, but I don't stick around waiting for a handshake and a "good game, blue." I don't stick around and supervise the "line em up handshake" because that's not my job. If a fight breaks out on the field, that is also not my concern once I'm off the field -- there ARE adults present to supervise the kids before and after the game -- why would I want to put myself in that situation?

I usually hand the balls to the first home player I see and then walk with purpose off the field towards my car.

You coach little kids and you and your fellow coaches may be AOK when it comes to sportsmanship and telling the umpire you appreciate the job he did. But as a general rule, no good can come out of the umpire sticking around. At the higher levels, especially if there have been some controversial calls during the game, you're just asking for a cheap shot from a coach, player, spectator, etc.

Get in. Get done. Get out. Get your pats on the back at home.

--Rich

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I don't throw balls on the ground, but I don't stick around waiting for a handshake and a "good game, blue." I don't stick around and supervise the "line em up handshake" because that's not my job. If a fight breaks out on the field, that is also not my concern once I'm off the field -- there ARE adults present to supervise the kids before and after the game -- why would I want to put myself in that situation?

I usually hand the balls to the first home player I see and then walk with purpose off the field towards my car.

You coach little kids and you and your fellow coaches may be AOK when it comes to sportsmanship and telling the umpire you appreciate the job he did. But as a general rule, no good can come out of the umpire sticking around. At the higher levels, especially if there have been some controversial calls during the game, you're just asking for a cheap shot from a coach, player, spectator, etc.

Get in. Get done. Get out. Get your pats on the back at home.

--Rich

Agreed. There's a difference between a COACH making a point of shaking the umpire's hand and saying, "Thanks." (that's good sportsmanship) and the UMPIRE making a point of shaking the coaches' hands (that's asking for trouble).

For the umpire, if you happen to see / be met by the coach, and he offers his hand, shake it.

There's (usually) no need to sprint off the field -- leave the balls at home plate, roll them toward the appropriate dugout, give them to the first person you see. Then stride off the filed -- with purpose, but not "in a hurry."

[sir_eldren]

Originally posted by jicecone Well, Im glad I don't officiate my only two sports (Hockey & Baseball)with your "Superman" Officiating Attitude. If you don't like the way people play the game do all of us a favor and don't officiate the sport.

Mabey you should read the other thread written about officials with an attitude, because your certainly a candidate for that award.

It is one thing to have a big EGO, know the rules and know when to apply them during the contest. It is totally another thing to go on the field or ice with this "Holier-Than-Thou, Everybody-Come-Watch-Me-Officiate attitude.

"It's obvious he's a worthless coach or he'd instill a sense of respect for the game in his players."

You, have a personal problem.[/B]

Wow! You must have seen me officiate! (End sarcasm here.)

You describe me in a manner that is so inconsistent with my personality that you must be on the other side of the world. Read the whole thing and then interject a bit of worldly realism. Any umpire or hockey ref who goes out to officiate and gets a big head and starts tossing guys left and right for unsportsmanlike behavior is not going to last long. It's rare that I have to do anything like that, but I'm not averse to it. Hell, I've been known to chew out my fellow teammates for their stupid actions on the ice in regards to unsportsmanlike behavior.

I became an official because I enjoy the games that I work. I like to see them played fairly and with respect for ALL participants. Once again: I will not tolerate unsportsmanlike behavior. Pardon me if I make it clear that I will take action against those children (and adults) who, once very 100 games, warrant that they return to the dressing room and take the rest of the night (or day) off.

I didn't come here to get told about the splinter in my eye by some guy who just about took my head off with his log. Now go home and keep your personal comments to yourself.

-Craig

[insatty]

Peter's concluding comment in his initial post was blunt to be sure, perhaps even rude. But true nonetheless. I was incompetent early in my career, too. As Steve Mattingly says, "Good judgment comes from bad judgment."

LDUB: Learn from your mistakes and move forward. The hardest aspect of umpiring to learn is game managment. Because it can't be taught in a book, game management must be learned by trial-and-error experience. Try to keep the rats in the game; but when it's time for them to go, heave them!

[MarionTiger]

Some of you have mentioned that you will shake if offered and that you leave with deliberance but not in a hurry. I can understand that if you think there may be some confrontation, and especially with adults or older kids. I see your point. It would seem that would certainly take some of the fun out of it. I guess it often depends on the situation as well.

A lot of you would laugh at our relationship. I often talk to the officials of my age group as well as others between games. It's usually about rules or situations. I think it's just because we enjoy the game and discussing it. It sounds like I'm more of the exception than I thought.

I officiated for a handful of years because I liked the money and enjoyed being part of the game. Maybe I can relate better because I have "been there". I don't know how/why some of you do it, but I'm glad you do.