Runner stopped advancing

Saltydog · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 05, 2004, 08:01pm

First some background: Cal Ripken rules, 9-10 y/os. All our umpires are High Schoolers, most active ball players. I'm the commish, trying to balance competition with learning.
Hypothetical Problem. Runner at 2B. Batter hits to RF. F9 charges ball and makes quick throw to F4. R2 has rounded 3rd and is drawn up short by base coach when F4 cocks to throw home. F4 stays cocked, takes a couple steps toward F1 who is on the rubber (F2 is behind the plate), then throws to F1, at which point runner takes off for home. Now, I've seen all the dancing that can take place in the upper leagues. And I know some Managers like to play 'rattle the kid' so they can win the game (I'm sure you've seen one where a single turned into a home run by the ball chasing the runner around the field.) My call as Commish is the runner had the chance to go for home, and he didn't. Now we can sit there all night playing 'no you go first, no you go first' or get on with the game... So I tell 'em 'When your defensive move has stopped the offence, and F1 and F2 are ready to play, then it's time to "Play", and the runner gets his tail back on 3B. Am I doing negative training here? Is this policy close enough to the rule book to make sense? Thanks. SD

jicecone · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 05, 2004, 08:53pm

Well,

What does the Rule Book you have, along with the League rules say and then mabey we can make a decision here.

What Rules does Cal Ripken play by???

I know LL used to read that when the pitcher with possesion of the ball, returned to the mound, the runner must either go back to the base or go to the next base.

????????? Tell us more.

Saltydog · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 05, 2004, 09:29pm

Well, for me, that's part of the rub. Our League Rules don't address this at all. We play under Cal Ripken Division - Babe Ruth League Rules as modified by our League Rules. However, I can't find anything in the Rule Book. The only thing I've seen was a post in this forum, which I can't find (grrrrr) where an ump with a similar situation basicly asked the Manager 'So, what is it? Home or 3rd?' so he could get on with the game, with another guy suggesting Time Out to put the runners back on base and 'play' to resume the game! SD

DG · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 05, 2004, 09:35pm

There is nothing in the Cal Ripken rulebook on this because it is nothing to rule on. The ball is live, and until the pitcher toes the rubber, the catcher is in the catcher's box, and the batter is in the batter's box, runners can dance around all they want to, off the bases. If the pitcher is on the rubber with the ball, catcher and batter not in their boxes yet, and runner takes off for home, throw him out. That will put a stop to this nonsense.

Saltydog · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 05, 2004, 09:49pm

Roger DG. But what if the pitcher is on the rubber and the catcher is behind the plate? (Batter is walking from on deck to batters box). Our League Rules do say "Runners cannot steal Home." So I guess the question is, is this stealing or is the runner still running the bases? If he never stopped, well I'm OK with that. But I thought there was something about 'advancing'.

DG · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 05, 2004, 10:23pm

Now we are mixing league rules with Cal Ripken Rules. If the league has a rule that you can't steal home then you can't. That is different from Cal Ripken rules that would require all runners to be in contact with their base at time of pitch. At TOP the picther has to be on the rubber, catcher in his box, and batter in his box. Two out of three is not enough, so if runner is playing games off 3B while batter is coming to the plate then fine. When batter gets in the box, he must go back to the base and be in contact at TOP.

How can a steal of home happen? The same was any base is stolen in Cal Ripken. Once the pitch reaches the plate, the runners can leave their base to steal the next base. Home is often stolen when a catcher, who is not paying any attention to the runner at 3B lazily returns a throw the pitcher after a pitch. The runner on 3B streaks for home. The pitcher is surprised and is not quick enough to return throw to the catcher in time and home is stolen. But you said your league does not allow a steal of home. Why, I don't know. What do you do on pass balls and wild pitches? Strictly speaking, these are not steals of home, but is the runner always required to stay at 3B?

Saltydog · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 05, 2004, 10:46pm

At the 9-10 level (Minors) they cannot steal home. At the 11-12 level (Majors) it's just as you stated. In the Minors, the only way a kid gets home is batter advances to first with bases loaded, batter hits ball, or F2 either overthrows F1 or a play at second and the ball touches the outfield grass. My guess is the intent was to strike a balance between instruction and competition, ball control vs a circus vs ORB, and the situational awareness in a kid this age. Can it work 'by the book'? That's what I grew up with in Ohio playing LL. This League is not as competive, which seems to make it playable for more kids. They naturally filter out as they move up, and a layer of rules is removed and competition goes up.

DG · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Jun 05, 2004, 11:08pm

More rules makes for more confusion. 11-12 and 9-10 should be similar, if not identical.

Kaliix · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 06, 2004, 12:14pm

I would think you could put an end to this by just having the pitcher run right at the runner. This is a standard move taught to players to make a runner caught in between bases to go one way or the other. When he decides, chase him back and the throw and tag him out.

That will happen once usually before it stops due to the runner being put out.

Saltydog · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 06, 2004, 03:51pm

I understand and agree with what you're saying. However, the dance that develops is now that the pitcher has forced the guy back to 3rd he has to somehow get back to the mound... and as he walks back the guy on 3rd starts coming off, then the waltz starts again. We could easily waste an evening with this unless the umpire gets fed up. With a really aggressive base coach eventually you get someone to throw the ball away (some of these guys really want to win!). If the defense asks for a time out to get the guy back on base and the game back underway, then we get the whine from the offense that you're inhibiting the runner. Remember, I'm dealing with 15 yo umpires. It's a tough thing for them to tell some 30-40 y/o manager to 'either send him home or back to third so the rest of us can play baseball'... or even tell the batter to get in the box. I guess I'm trying to legislate common sense, and that is always a losing prop. It's just frustrating watching a ball game turned into a circus... not hard with a bunch of 9-10s. Thanks for all the input.

Kaliix · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 06, 2004, 04:08pm

Yeah, I see your problem. Only other thing I could add would be that after the pitcher forces him back to the base or throws him out is to then immediately ask for time once the runner is on the base. Instruct your umpires to grant it immediately and perhaps even call it anyways so as to get the game moving.

Sounds like a tough one. I wish you luck.

Quote:

Originally posted by Saltydog
I understand and agree with what you're saying. However, the dance that develops is now that the pitcher has forced the guy back to 3rd he has to somehow get back to the mound... and as he walks back the guy on 3rd starts coming off, then the waltz starts again. We could easily waste an evening with this unless the umpire gets fed up. With a really aggressive base coach eventually you get someone to throw the ball away (some of these guys really want to win!). If the defense asks for a time out to get the guy back on base and the game back underway, then we get the whine from the offense that you're inhibiting the runner. Remember, I'm dealing with 15 yo umpires. It's a tough thing for them to tell some 30-40 y/o manager to 'either send him home or back to third so the rest of us can play baseball'... or even tell the batter to get in the box. I guess I'm trying to legislate common sense, and that is always a losing prop. It's just frustrating watching a ball game turned into a circus... not hard with a bunch of 9-10s. Thanks for all the input.

BoomerSooner · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 07, 2004, 04:06am

The proper thing to do is to, as has been said, chase the runner back to third, then have the third baseman hold the ball. There is nothing that says the pitcher has to carry the ball back from third after chasing the runner back. The third baseman can hold the ball, the pitcher can return to the mound, as there is also nothing that says the ball must be in the pitcher's possesion before the next batter can be brought to the plate, only an active play prevents the batter from assuming his position. With the ball and the runner at third together, I don't think there is any likelyhood of an active play developing, therefore, call the next batter up, make him stand in the box, and then the third baseman can return the ball to the pitcher. Simple as can be, and the proper way to do things absent allowing the player to lead off or a formal lookback rule.