The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 05, 2018, 06:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 153
NFHS new Case Play

*8.2.7 SITUATION B:

The leadoff hitter has a 3-2 count. There is a check-swing situation and the plate umpire calls ball four. The base umpire reverses the call on appeal and calls strike three. B1 overruns first base. In (a), the defense tags the batter/runner returning to first base. In (b, the defense tags the batter/runner after the batter/runner attempts to go to second base before returning to first base.

RULING: In (a), the batter/runner is safe. In (b), the batter/runner is out.

Without reading anything into the case, and without making any assumptions, and without adding anything that isn't there, can anyone tell me why in (a) the batter/runner is safe? I'd say he's out on strikes.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 05, 2018, 08:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Middleman View Post
*8.2.7 SITUATION B:

The leadoff hitter has a 3-2 count. There is a check-swing situation and the plate umpire calls ball four. The base umpire reverses the call on appeal and calls strike three. B1 overruns first base. In (a), the defense tags the batter/runner returning to first base. In (b, the defense tags the batter/runner after the batter/runner attempts to go to second base before returning to first base.

RULING: In (a), the batter/runner is safe. In (b), the batter/runner is out.

Without reading anything into the case, and without making any assumptions, and without adding anything that isn't there, can anyone tell me why in (a) the batter/runner is safe? I'd say he's out on strikes.
And why was the ball at 1B?
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 05, 2018, 10:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 504
Sloppily written (shocker)...this case only makes sense if the final pitch is uncaught on the fly.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 05, 2018, 11:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrounge View Post
Sloppily written (shocker)...this case only makes sense if the final pitch is uncaught on the fly.
“On the fly” makes your post a little sloppily written at least to me. But we know what they and you meant.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 07:55am
In Time Out
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 130
I'm not sure what the point of this case play is.

Isn't the B/R on a uncaught third strike always allowed to overrun 1st base? Wouldn't he always be liable to be put out if instead of simply overrunning, he made an attempt at second?

I don't see what this case play is attempting to clarify.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 08:04am
CT1 CT1 is offline
Official & ***** Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerUmp View Post
I'm not sure what the point of this case play is.

Isn't the B/R on a uncaught third strike always allowed to overrun 1st base? Wouldn't he always be liable to be put out if instead of simply overrunning, he made an attempt at second?

I don't see what this case play is attempting to clarify.
Up until this year, under NFHS rules, B/R was liable to be tagged out if he overran first base on a base on balls. That's no longer the case.

The problem typically arose when we had a check-swing with a 3-2 count on a pitch in the dirt that was originally ruled a swing (strike 3) but was changed to ball 4 on appeal.

PS: I've never seen this happen, probably because the defense had no idea that this was a rule and never tagged the B/R past 1st base. I also suspect that if that had happened, very few umpires would have known that rule either.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 08:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 16,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Middleman View Post
Without reading anything into the case, and without making any assumptions, and without adding anything that isn't there, can anyone tell me why in (a) the batter/runner is safe? I'd say he's out on strikes.
You can not "say he's out on strikes," without also "reading anything into the case, and without making any assumptions, and without adding anything that isn't there."

Your point that the case could be better written is valid.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 09:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT1 View Post
Up until this year, under NFHS rules, B/R was liable to be tagged out if he overran first base on a base on balls. That's no longer the case.

The problem typically arose when we had a check-swing with a 3-2 count on a pitch in the dirt that was originally ruled a swing (strike 3) but was changed to ball 4 on appeal.

PS: I've never seen this happen, probably because the defense had no idea that this was a rule and never tagged the B/R past 1st base. I also suspect that if that had happened, very few umpires would have known that rule either.
You can't change it to a ball if it was originally ruled a strike
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 11:02am
Archaic Power Monger
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re View Post
You can't change it to a ball if it was originally ruled a strike
That scenario was presented by Kyle McNeely this weekend at the TASO State Baseball Meeting as an example for why the change was made.
__________________
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 11:03am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 16,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
That scenario was presented by Kyle McNeely this weekend at the TASO State Baseball Meeting as an example for why the change was made.
If so, then he was wrong, too.

The usual scenario is that the pitch is called a ball, but BR runs anyway just in case it's reversed. When it's not, BR was liable to be tagged out if he overran.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 11:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
You can not "say he's out on strikes," without also "reading anything into the case, and without making any assumptions, and without adding anything that isn't there."

Your point that the case could be better written is valid.
The case said it was changed to strike 3. The case did NOT say it was uncaught. So saying out on strikes is true unless you read into the play and assume that it was uncaught.
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 12:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
That scenario was presented by Kyle McNeely this weekend at the TASO State Baseball Meeting as an example for why the change was made.
And nobody questioned it?
The 2 most common situations would be the 3-2 check swing on a ball in the dirt or dropped appealed to a ball and a wild pitch ball four. There is also the casual step past 1B where the B-R would be at risk also if anyone knew the rule before the change.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 08, 2018, 12:26pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
That scenario was presented by Kyle McNeely this weekend at the TASO State Baseball Meeting as an example for why the change was made.
What scenario -- changing a strike to a ball on appeal?

Please tell me that isn't so.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 09, 2018, 01:23am
Archaic Power Monger
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post

The usual scenario is that the pitch is called a ball, but BR runs anyway just in case it's reversed. When it's not, BR was liable to be tagged out if he overran.
Honestly, I'm probably not remembering correctly what he said and this is it. So I'll withdraw my comment for now. I will send him an email for clarification.
__________________
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 09, 2018, 02:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
The case said it was changed to strike 3. The case did NOT say it was uncaught. So saying out on strikes is true unless you read into the play and assume that it was uncaught.
Yet at the same time, saying safe is true unless you read into the play and assume that it was caught.
__________________
Lurker from Massachusetts. Not an official in any sport.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NFHS case play list? oc Basketball 23 Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:17pm
Is NFHS Case Book Play 2.10.1 Sit. G(d) (re: corr. error situation) really an error? rpirtle Basketball 3 Wed Dec 24, 2008 03:25pm
NFHS Case Play 10.4.5 Situation E page 84 Robert E. Harrison Basketball 15 Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:21pm
What about Case Play 10.8-1? Dakota Softball 4 Sun Nov 16, 2003 01:54pm
NFHS 2002 Case book play 1.5.6 Mike Simonds Football 11 Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:45pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:06am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1