dropped 3rd strike mechanics

[YoungRighty]

Newbie question:
What are the preferred PU mechanics associated with dropped 3rd strikes (in situations when the batter is able to run)? Right now, on a caught third strike, I'm explicitly signaling the strike with a pointed finger (and verbalizing it if it's a called strike), then signaling the out with a fist and verbalizing "out". So that on a drop, I do the same strike signal/call but I don't do the out signal and verbal "out" call until the tag. This approach seems very consistent to me, although it's a little busy and it's kind of a passive approach in that I'm sort of leaving it to the players to know my mechanics and recognize the absence of the out call. Would it be better to instead make some kind of a signal or a verbalization that the batter is not out if the ball is dropped?

What about when first is occupied? Should I do anything out of the ordinary on the drop, or just do exactly what I would do on a catch? In other words, should I be doing anything special to indicate to the defense that they don't have to make a throw, or should I make sure I DON'T do anything differently and make sure the burden is completely on them to recognize that the batter is already out and make the right decision (not to throw)?

I've seen different approaches, and being new, I'd like to develop a good habit early.

[Cubbies87]

Save yourself a lot of heart ache and misery. On a third strike, whether called or not, do not verbalize or signal "Out". It is not necessary. The players should be aware of the count. If a batter has struck out, and after an extended period of time remains in the box, not realizing he has struck out, simply say, "That's strike three."

Behind the plate, it is sometimes very difficult to pick up a dropped third strike. This is due to the fact that there is a body between you and the ball, below the strike zone. When there are more umpires, they can usually help you out with a signal to let you know whether it was caught or not.

But, no matter what the situation, whether you've seen it caught or not, the signal and verbalization is "Strike Three!." When I am positive the ball was dropped, I take off my mask and get an angle on a possible tag by the catcher, ready for the play as it develops. If the batter abondons efforts to first, even if the ball was dropped, he is still out.

One complication is that many younger players are told to run anytime there is a third strike. Use your best judgement. If you feel that the catcher caught the ball, and you see the runner going up the line, you may then signal and verbalize, "The batter is out!"

Most of the time, the players will help you out, and react to the play, as opposed to trying to force a play.

On a similar note, on ball four, there is no signal, and the only verbalization is "Ball four." Do not point to first, or say "Take your base." Avoid using extra words whenever possible. ESPECIALLY avoid the signal on Ball 4, because it can often times be confused with a signal for a Strike.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by YoungRighty
Newbie question:
What are the preferred PU mechanics associated with dropped 3rd strikes (in situations when the batter is able to run)? ...[snip]... Would it be better to instead make some kind of a signal or a verbalization that the batter is not out if the ball is dropped?

As a self-confessed "Newbie" official, stick with calling 3rd strikes the same way, with a simple door-knock with the right fist clenched high, and forget about verbalizing any "Out" call unless you are responding to a confirmed swing on a check attempt. Only verbalize your 3rd strike call if the batter failed to offer.

Originally posted by YoungRighty
What about when first is occupied? Should I do anything out of the ordinary on the drop, or just do exactly what I would do on a catch? In other words, should I be doing anything special to indicate to the defense that they don't have to make a throw, or should I make sure I DON'T do anything differently and make sure the burden is completely on them to recognize that the batter is already out and make the right decision (not to throw)?

The burden is completely on the defense to recognize that the batter is already out, at least in leagues where the kids shave.

Originally posted by YoungRighty
I've seen different approaches, and being new, I'd like to develop a good habit early.

See answer 1 above.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[YoungRighty]

Let me restate my question using an example:

R3, no outs, two strikes on the batter. Pitch is a low curve ball, batter swings and misses, catcher raises his mitt with the ball and lots of dust. In other words, it's not obvious if the pitch was caught or if it bounced. The batter takes off for first. Now the catcher has to decide whether to throw to first or not. Shouldn't my call be clear enough to let him know immediately whether he must throw to first or not? He shouldn't have to risk a bad throw (and a run scoring) because he couldn't clearly and immediately recognize my call. It would be analogous to a base runner trying to figure out if a sinking liner was caught or trapped - he's taught to look immediately at the umpire to get the call.

What should the catcher be looking for in my example? If I judge that the pitch has bounced before he caught it, how do I indicate that fact? If I judge that the pitch was caught, how do I let him know that?

[Rich]

If the runner takes off for first base on a ball he's not entitled to run on, I'm coming up strong with a "HE'S OUT! HE'S OUT!" And I'm doing that at ALL levels of ball.

Rich

[nine01c]

I agree with Rich. I always verbalize "Batter's OUT" when BR is not entitled to try for 1B. In your situation (no runner on 1B) you can get help from your base umpire (covered in pre-game how he will signal) if F2 caught or dropped the ball, or if it hit the ground first. If he gives you the info, react accordingly, either verbalize OUT! or say nothing. If you are working alone, and are not POSITIVE that the ball was caught, then say nothing and react to F2's behavior. If he throws to F3 (or tries to tag BR), assume it was a dropped third STRIKE and let the play happen. If he quickly "shows you the ball," verbalize "Batter's OUT" as if you are 100% sure.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by YoungRighty
Let me restate my question using an example:

...[snip]...

What should the catcher be looking for in my example? If I judge that the pitch has bounced before he caught it, how do I indicate that fact? If I judge that the pitch was caught, how do I let him know that?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Rich and nine01c on this occasion.

At all levels it is NOT the umpire's job to inform the catcher that a batter is out. Even the rules recognize that the runner advancing to 1st when he is not entitled to do so is not, in and of itself, an act of interference. Catcher's are expected to know the state of game play.

What should the catcher be looking for in your example? He should be looking for a runner on 1st base with less than 2 outs! That will tell him that the play is going to be at some other base unless he decides to try for a pick off. AND he should know all of that before the pitch is delivered, not after it hits the dirt.

The only time I will declare "The batter is OUT" in similar circumstances is when the batter apparently thinks he's entitled to the base. THEN I will direct him to the dugout with that call AFTER any other action on the play is over.

Hope this helps

Cheers

[Rich]

I believe what I describe is preventive officiating.

I believe that a batter-runner running in a situation where he is not entitled to run is much different than the typical case where a retired runner is not interfering by the action of merely running.

It is either ignorance on the part of the batter or an attempt by the retired batter to draw a throw. Ignorant at best, unsporting at worst.

If I can stop that, I'm making things better. Why should the offense EVER benefit from a batter striking out on a pitch that is caught by the catcher?

Rich

[David B]

What Rich said.

David

QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
I believe what I describe is preventive officiating.

I believe that a batter-runner running in a situation where he is not entitled to run is much different than the typical case where a retired runner is not interfering by the action of merely running.

It is either ignorance on the part of the batter or an attempt by the retired batter to draw a throw. Ignorant at best, unsporting at worst.

If I can stop that, I'm making things better. Why should the offense EVER benefit from a batter striking out on a pitch that is caught by the catcher?

Rich [/QUOTE]

[nine01c]

[/QUOTE]I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with Rich and nine01c on this occasion.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree. Over the years, I was taught to ALWAYS call BR OUT! since it is CLEAR (to me) that he is OUT if 1B is occupied with less than 2 outs. This mechanic has been taught at three different clinics I attended.

Even though F2 "should" know the count and that BR is OUT (because 1B is occupied), verbalizing this fact can prevent a headache by stopping unnecessary play.

Does anyone know what students at the umpire schools are being instructed to do in this case? Or at the college level?

[GarthB]

1. The defense is an active part of the game. They are responsible for being "in the game" and aware of the situation. They are not spectators.

2. We allow runners on base to behave in such a manner as to draw an un-wise throw, this is no different. At some levels it is coached strategy.

3. It is not specifically outlawed by rule in OBR.

4. This is really not much differet from the batter, who on ball three, begins to trot to first while R1 trots to second. If the defense is asleep and R1 makes it to second, do we send him back to first when the batter comes back to the plate? Hell, no. He just stole a base from a spectating defense.

Umpires who prevent this, in my opinion, are interjecting themselves in the flow of the game.

I was taught to be a channel in the flow of the game, not a dam.

[YoungRighty]

I think we're confusing two situations.

Case One: The batter can run on a dropped third strike. It is not obvious whether it was caught or not. I think we all agree that the caught/not caught decision should be clearly communicated immediately. My question was (and still is): what are the best mechanics to do this?

Case Two: First is occupied and the ball is clearly not caught. The question here is should the umpire go out of his way to let everyone know that the batter cannot advance, or simply call the strike/out (using the identical mechanics as in Case One) and then let nature take its course. I think this is the one where there is some disagreement.

My whole point in bringing this up was to make sure that I as PU am clearly and consistently communicating:
- the strike and out (if ball is caught or batter cannot advance), or
- the strike and no out (if ball is dropped and batter can advance)

Thanks again for your help.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by YoungRighty
I think we're confusing two situations.

Case One: The batter can run on a dropped third strike. It is not obvious whether it was caught or not. I think we all agree that the caught/not caught decision should be clearly communicated immediately. My question was (and still is): what are the best mechanics to do this?

A) Give the "safe sign" or point at the dirt.

B) Verbalize "safe" "no catch" or "[the ball's] on the ground"

Choose one from column A, one from column B.

[nine01c]

Jim:

I'm in agreement on the caught/uncaught third strike. It has to be ruled on one way or the other. If it's caught, Batter OUT, if uncaught, no verbal OUT until he is tagged or thrown OUT.

The question I had relates to the strikeout (caught or uncaught) where no matter what happens, BR cannot try for 1B due to it being occupied with less than 2 outs.

Ex: 1 out, 2-2 count, Batter whiffs at the pitch and misses, F2 secures it on the bounce, but BR is OUT because 1B is occupied.
Personally, I declare Batter OUT!
Some disagree and stay quiet.

I wanted to know what is being taught at pro schools and at the college level.
Thanks

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by nine01c

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree. Over the years, I was taught to ALWAYS call BR OUT! since it is CLEAR (to me) that he is OUT if 1B is occupied with less than 2 outs. This mechanic has been taught at three different clinics I attended.

...do you declare the batter OUT on every caught 3rd strike as well? After all, the batter is out then too, isn't he?

Why do you call it differently just because 1st base is occupied and the third strike is uncaught? Why suddenly verbalize THAT out call, when you don't normally verbalize an out in any other 3rd strike situation where the batter doesn't become a runner?

The only reason must be in order to alert the defense that they don't have to make a play at 1st on the BR. That is NOT the umpire's responsibility. Rich calls it preventative umpiring. I call it unjustified interference in the game process. The umpire is not a participant. It is the same principle as not advising anyone of a batting out of order situation. The rules require vigilance from the participants.

Maybe we'll end up having to A2D, but I would feel I had let you down if I didn't at least try to explain the justification for my position on the matter. BTW, I can find no reference to a requirement to verbalize "Batter is OUT" on a dropped 3rd strike anywhere in the UDP Manual for the Two Umpire System or in the PBUC/NAPBL Umpire Manual.

Hope this helps

Cheers