Scoring Questions

[Benchcoach]

No outs R1 on second base. Hit and Run play on. Batter grounds back to F1. F1decides he can get R1 going to 3rd but throws wild. R1 scores and batter advances to second base. Batter ultimately scores later in the inning.

Q1: Is batter credited with an RBI?
Q2: Is run scored by batter Earned or Unearned?

[jTheUmp]

Unfortunately, I don't think you'll get an answer to your questions here... those of us who umpire generally don't spend much (or, in my case, ANY) time reading the rules governing scoring decisions (ie, Rule 9).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Benchcoach

No outs R1 on second base. Hit and Run play on. Batter grounds back to F1. F1decides he can get R1 going to 3rd but throws wild. R1 scores and batter advances to second base. Batter ultimately scores later in the inning.

Q1: Is batter credited with an RBI?
Q2: Is run scored by batter Earned or Unearned?

Just some guesses from the days when I did pay a bit of attention to this:

1) No RBI. FC+Error.

2) Without the error, BR would have been at first and there would have been one out. Would he have scored from first before three would have been out?

[Benchcoach]

Assuming Batter would have score from first base ie. back to back hits following play described in post. What I am trying to ascertain is if a batter becomes a runner as a result of an error on the pitcher is the run still Unearned?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Benchcoach

Assuming Batter would have score from first base ie. back to back hits following play described in post. What I am trying to ascertain is if a batter becomes a runner as a result of an error on the pitcher is the run still Unearned?

No to this question but that's not what happened in the OP. In the OP, the batter became a runner as a result of the FC by the pitcher (IOW, with no error, R2 would have been out, but BR would still have been at first)

[Benchcoach]

Thanks for the reply Bob. Decided I should just look it up myself. For those interested.... Even though a batter/runner scoring as a result of wild pitch is scored as earned (even true in the case of a wild pitch 3rd strike) an error by the pitcher acting as a fielder that ultimately results in the batter/runner scoring is scored Unearned. See OBR 10.16(a)&(e).

After reading Rule 10 a good rule of thumb seems to be that if the run scored as a result of something done or not done by the pitcher (including merely pitching the ball) while in contact with the pitcher's plate the run is Earned, unless of course the run ultimately scored as a result of another fielder prolonging the inning. If the pitcher acting as fielder commits the error it would be scored the same as any other fielder.

[CT1]

Bob's right. Reconstruct the inning without the error & determine if a runner would have scored anyway. If there's doubt, it's resolved in favor of the pitcher.

Another "rule of thumb": Any B/R who reaches as the result of an error and later scores is unearned. With two out, if an error prolongs the inning, no further runs are earned.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by CT1

Bob's right. Reconstruct the inning without the error & determine if a runner would have scored anyway. If there's doubt, it's resolved in favor of the pitcher.

Another "rule of thumb": Any B/R who reaches as the result of an error and later scores is unearned. With two out, if an error prolongs the inning, no further runs are earned.

Agree with this, but with one addition. Regardless of when the error occurs, if changing the error to an out results in 3 outs for the inning, no further earned runs can be credited to the pitcher. This is assuming the error prevented an out from being made and wasn't an error that simply allowed a runner to advance an additional base.

Examples:
1. With 2 outs, Charlie reaches 1st based because of an error. Daniel hits a home run. Both runs are unearned.
2. With 0 outs, Abel reaches 1st base because of an error. Baker and Charlie both strike out. Daniel hits a home run. Both runs are unearned.
3. With 2 outs, Charlie reaches 1st base on a play ruled a single by the scorer but is awarded 2nd when the throw by the shortstop enters the dugout. Daniel hits a home run. Both runs are earned as the error was not considered to have prevented what would have been the 3rd out.

The exception to this is the missed opportunity to make an out due to an error does not carry over to a new pitcher should there be a substitution for the pitcher.

Example: With 2 outs and Peter pitching, Charlie reaches first base due to an error. Peter is replaced by Roger. Daniel hits a home run. Individually Peter is credited with an unearned run and Roger is credited with an earned run, but the team is credited with 2 unearned runs.

Going back to the original situation:

1. No RBI - I can't imagine a scenario where the runner scores without the aid of the error.
2. Not enough information to determine earned vs. unearned run. It depends on whether or not the scorer felt the runner would have been out absent the wild throw. If the scorer rules he would have been out, then the run is unearned. If the scorer rules runner would have been safe regardless of the throw and the wild throw only allowed the runner to score, it is still possible that he run could be earned or unearned. Without the error, the runner would have remained on 3rd base and the progression of the rest of the inning would be needed to determine the status of the run. The fact that the batter runner eventually scored does not help as future errors could prolong the inning. For example, 2 infield pop ups result in 2 outs made but an error occurs on a fly ball that is dropped that would have allowed the runner to score. This is unearned. If, however, the first batter after the original play hits a single, then the run would be earned.

Other than a few hard and fast rules, the key is to figuring out earned vs unearned is to assess what would have happened if the error had not occurred with normal effort and then reconstruct the inning as though the error didn't occur. There are many nuances and intricacies, including the official scorer's judgement, that go into determining earned vs. unearned, but using many of the general rules already posted, you'll get to the right conclusion.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

2. Not enough information to determine earned vs. unearned run. It depends on whether or not the scorer felt the runner would have been out absent the wild throw. If the scorer rules he would have been out, then the run is unearned. If the scorer rules runner would have been safe regardless of the throw and the wild throw only allowed the runner to score, it is still possible that he run could be earned or unearned. Without the error, the runner would have remained on 3rd base and the progression of the rest of the inning would be needed to determine the status of the run. The fact that the batter runner eventually scored does not help as future errors could prolong the inning. For example, 2 infield pop ups result in 2 outs made but an error occurs on a fly ball that is dropped that would have allowed the runner to score. This is unearned. If, however, the first batter after the original play hits a single, then the run would be earned.

Maybe I'm confused by question # 2 -- it asks if a run scored by the BATTER is earned or not. Maybe the OP meant "RUNNER."

[BoomerSooner]

Bob...I think I actually misread the question and do think he's asking about the batter-runner.

The same basic principles still apply to the batter runner with the added thought process being that at most only 1 out was going to be obtained on the play as described (with normal play, at least 1 runner was still going to be on base). Since the error wasn't the cause of the batter-runner making it to first, he would be an earned run unless he scored on or after a play which would have been the 3rd out without the original error or any subsequent errors.

Examples (to avoid confusion, the original runner on 2nd will be Abel, Baker will be the batter and subsequent players will follow accordingly):

1. The scorer determines that the error by F1 prevented Abel from being put out at 3rd and Abel scores on the play. This run is unearned and results in Baker reaching first base on a Fielder's Choice. Following this play...

A. With no outs and Baker on 1st, Charlie hits a home run.
Baker and Charlie are earned runs as the error did not contribute to them scoring.

B. With no outs and Baker on 1st, Charlie is put out on a sacrifice bunt and Baker advances to 2nd base. With 1 out and Baker on 2nd, Daniel strikes out but Baker steals 3rd during the AB. Now with 2 outs and Baker on 3rd, any sequence of plays (base hit, error, SB, WP, PB, etc) allows Baker to score.
Baker's run is an unearned run as the original error prevented Abel from being put out. Had the error not been made, the inning would have ended on Daniel's strikeout prior to Baker scoring.

2. The scorer determines that the error by F1 did not prevent Abel from being put out at 3rd, but did allow Abel to score on the play. This run is unearned for the moment and the inning will be reconstructed with Abel on 3rd to determine if he subsequent becomes an earned run. Play continues with Baker reaching first base on either a base hit or FC (this is a judgement call that I won't delve into here). Following this play...

A. With no outs and Baker at 1st, Charlie hits a home run.
The runs scored by Abel, Baker and Charlie are earned runs.

B. With no outs and Baker at 1st, Charlie strikes out. With 1 out and Baker at 1st, Daniel strikes out. With 2 outs and Baker at 1st, Edward strikes out.
The run scored by Abel is unearned. Without the error, Abel would have been stranded at 3rd base.

C. With no outs and Baker at 1st, Charlie is put out on a sacrifice bunt and Baker advances to 2nd base. As the rule gives the pitcher the benefit of the doubt in determining what bases runners might have advanced, the theoretical Abel remains on 3rd base. With 1 out and Baker on 2nd, Daniel strikes out. With 2 outs and Baker on 2nd, Edward hits a home run.
The runs scored by Abel, Baker and Edward are all earned runs. The error by F1 was not determined to prevent a put out, so the defense has not had a chance to make the 3rd out prior to the runs scoring.

D. With no outs and Baker at 1st, Charlie reaches 1st base on an error due to a misplayed sacrifice bunt attempt and Baker advances to 2nd (benefit of the doubt to the pitcher leaves theoretical Abel at 3rd). Daniel pops up to shallow left, but F7 drops the ball. Baker advances to 3rd, Charlie advances to 2nd and Daniel reaches on the error. Without the errors, the theoretical situation is 2 outs with Abel on 3rd, Baker on 2nd (it is fair to assume he would have advanced on the sacrifice bunt, but not necessarily so for Abel). The actual situation now has 1 out with Baker on 3rd, Charlie on 2nd and Daniel on 1st. Edward grounds out to first base, Baker scores, Charlie advances to 3rd and Daniel advances to 2nd.
Abel's and Baker's runs are unearned as are any subsequent runs allowed.

E. With no outs and Baker at 1st, Charlie reaches 1st base on an error due to a misplayed sacrifice bunt attempt and Baker advances to 2nd (benefit of the doubt to the pitcher leaves theoretical Abel remains at 3rd). Daniel pops up to shallow left, but F7 drops the ball. Baker advances to 3rd, Charlie advances to 2nd and Daniel reaches on the error. Without the errors, the theoretical situation is 2 outs with Abel on 3rd, Baker on 2nd (it is fair to assume he would have advanced on the sacrifice bunt, but not necessarily so for Abel). The actual situation now has 1 out with Baker on 3rd, Charlie on 2nd and Daniel on 1st. Edward hits a home run scoring Baker, Charlie, Daniel and Edward.
Runs scored by Abel, Baker and Edward are now earned, but runs by Charlie and Daniel are unearned as they reached base due to errors that prevented them from being put out.