Scoring and Timing questions

[Sleeper]

I had a couple of rules I needed to get clarification on in Rule 5.

1. Rule 5.2.5 When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and three-tenths of a second or less remain on the clock, no field goal may be scored by a try for a goal. In this situation a tap could score.

Does this mean that a tap is the only way to score? If so, what is the logic here? I think I know, but I want to make sure I am reading it correctly.

2. Rule 5.7.4 Once the ball becomes live in the extra period, it will be played even though a correction in the fourth quarter score is made. If the ball is live again, how can a correction be made in the score? Would this be a clerical error on the scorer's part? Why would you continue playing the period?

[johnSandlin]

Sleeper,

In regards to your first question, the reason behind that is because there is nobody that would be able to set themselves and then go right back up for a shot of any knid other then a tap or tip try in .3 seconds time.
In regards, to your second question..I have the same questions you do behind and I have yet to get a real good answer from people to go with. I hope this helps you out some.

John Sandlin

[Sleeper]

Thanks! That's what I thought on the first question. I am interested to hear an explanation on the second.

[zebraman]

For your second question, I would guess that it's because the scorekeeper failed math. At the end of the game, the score is 51 to 51 according to the table. Then you start overtime and the scorekeeper realizes that he/she counted that 3 pointer (that you signaled) as only a 2 when adding the scores and team A actually should have won the game. But now you've already started the O.T. so you do the following:

1) Change the score.
2) Finish the game.
3) Run like hell.
4) Let the air out of the scorekeepers tires. :-)

Z

[BktBallRef]

zebraman is correct. Once an overtime period has begun, it must be played, even if an error is the book is discovered.

[johnSandlin]

zebraman,

Totally agree with your viewpoint, especially the last two points you brought up.

[Oz Referee]

If this ever happens then (IMHO) the referees need to be shot. If the game is tight, there is usually a time out towards the end of regulation, and one thing I always do is check the scoresheet, and make sure the scoreboard is displaying the same info - it's called preventative officiating.

As an aside, this basically cannot happen under FIBA rules, since it is the duty of the referees to sign and authenticate the scoresheet before the game is over. In fact, the definition of the game being over (in FIBA) is when the referee has checked, and signed, the official scoresheet.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Oz Referee
If this ever happens then (IMHO) the referees need to be shot. If the game is tight, there is usually a time out towards the end of regulation, and one thing I always do is check the scoresheet, and make sure the scoreboard is displaying the same info - it's called preventative officiating.

Do you add up all the points and make sure the player totals are the same as the running score? This is what usually happens. The problem isn't with the running score matching the scoreboard. It's usually when the scorer starts adding up the player totals and discovers that those totals don't match the running score. It's not an official who screws up, it's the scorer.

Let's not go shooting any referees, okay mate?

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Do you add up all the points and make sure the player totals are the same as the running score? This is what usually happens. The problem isn't with the running score matching the scoreboard. It's usually when the scorer starts adding up the player totals and discovers that those totals don't match the running score. It's not an official who screws up, it's the scorer.

Let's not go shooting any referees, okay mate?

I was meaning to shoot any referees, and going off your response I assume the scoresheet you use is very different to FIBA scoresheets. Although it is a little difficult to explain without a drawing, I'll give it a shot.

The FIBA scoresheet has Team A on the left, Team B on the right, and a running score in the middle, going from top to bottom. If A8 scores 2 points to start the game, then the 2 is crossed off, and 8 is written next to it (on Team A's side of the running score). If A6 then scores a 3 pointer next, the 5 is circled (to indicate a 3) and 6 is written next to it. If B7 then scores 2 free throws, the 1 and the 2 would have a filled in circle on them to indicate free throws.

So at the end of the game all the referee needs to do is make sure that the scorer has only increased the score by 2 for a two pointer, and that 3 points have been awarded only when the score is circled. (have I confused anyone yet? )

For example:


Team A.....Score..Score....Team B
...................1.......1*............7
......8...........x2.......2*............7
...................3.......3
...................4.......4
......6...........o5.......5


Not sure if this made any sense at all....but I tried.

[Edited by Oz Referee on Oct 2nd, 2002 at 05:16 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Our scorebooks are set up with each player's points scored beside his name. However, a running score at the top of the page is the official score. But we all realize that the scorers use the player totals to keep track of the running score. So, when a mistake is discovered after OT begins, it's corrected but OT continues. The officials don't have any control over this.

That's why there's no need to shoot!

[Oz Referee]

Sounds the same as the scoresheets we used to have in Australia, but about 10 years ago we tossed them out and started using the offical FIBA scoresheet. Players kicked up a bit of a stink because they couldn't easily see how many points they had scored, coaches seemed to prefer it, because it emphasises the team aspect. After about a 2 year teething period there where basically no complaints. However we still use a summary sheet as well that is filled out at the end of each quarter - this sheet has individual players scores, and is used as a double check for the scoresheet.

Yet again, another interesting difference between FIBA and the US.

Does anyone know what they use as the official scoresheet in the WNBA or NBA?

[BktBallRef]

I would imagine the NBA has there own internally developed scoring shhets. Pretty sure they don't run down to the sporting goods store and buy them like HS coaches do.

[theboys]

Had this happen to my son's team:

Seventh grade playoff game. In the first quarter the opponent makes a jump shot. Its pretty close to the 3-point line, but both officials correctly indicate a 2-point basket. Scorekeeper and scoreboard operator (both supplied by our team) erroneously give the player credit for a 3. At halftime, the guy next to me tells me the score is wrong. We talk about it, but don't do anything. Sure enough, at the end of regulation we're tied. The opponent goes on to win in OT. Once again the guy next to me and I talk about the score discrepancy. I filmed the game, so I went home and reviewed the tape. Bingo, found the error. Of course, nothing could be done.

Interesting footnote, the next day our coach was having a conversation with the opponent's coach, and our coach mentioned the discrepancy. The opponent's coach told our coach he knew the score was wrong all along.

Makes for an interesting moral dilemma - How far should a person go to ensure something is right?

[Sleeper]

How sad the coach compromised his ethics over a game. I think this is the horrible warning versus the good example. What has he taught the kids?

What is the best way to try to avoid this occurring, especially if the scorekeeper is wrong? Is there a different set of books that can be reconciled against the official set?

[mick]

Originally posted by Sleeper
How sad the coach compromised his ethics over a game. I think this is the horrible warning versus the good example. What has he taught the kids?

What is the best way to try to avoid this occurring, especially if the scorekeeper is wrong? Is there a different set of books that can be reconciled against the official set?

S;eeper,
Worse yet is that the coach did not compromise his ethics.
If the refs don't notice and the dis-favored coaches don't notice and the scorekeeper, nor fans don't bring it to anyone's attention, no one will even know to look at the books.
Usually, some fan will be yelling, "The score is wrong!", that's my tip-off at the next dead ball. (Like I said before, I never (let 'em know) hear 'em.
mick