Walk-Off, I think

[DG]

Originally Posted by umpjim

So on any batted ball the forced runners don't have to touch their advance base? Or is it any batted ball that everyone agrees is a walk off?
What interp is that?
Actually there is a poorly written rule that only requires the BR and R3 to touch on an award or "other play". That rule then has an interp that it doesn't apply on a batted ball.
Umps got taken off the hook by the security guard.

Game ending only. MLBUM 4.11 and rule 4.09b in 2014 book, 5.08b in the new recodified 2015 book. On any game ending play, walk, or hit batter with bases loaded R3 must touch home and BR must touch 1b before game ends. Security guard pickup appears irrelevant.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by DG

Game ending only. MLBUM 4.11 and rule 4.09b, although the rule reference is from 2014 book. I don't know where it is in the new recodified 2015 book just yet. If R3 scored and BR touched 1b when guard picked up the ball, he is just cleaning up the field, otherwise fan interference and result is the same.

So when, with 1 out, with bases loaded, a ground ball is hit to F5 and due to convenience, he steps on 3B and throws to the closest base for the force at 2B the runner from third scores because he and the BR touched their proper bases?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by umpjim

So when, with 1 out, with bases loaded, a ground ball is hit to F5 and due to convenience, he steps on 3B and throws to the closest base for the force at 2B the runner from third scores because he and the BR touched their proper bases?

No.

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in
the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other
play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire
shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has
touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

Once F5 touches 3B R3 is no longer forced. It then reverts to the normal "run can't score when" exceptions.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

No.

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in
the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other
play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire
shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has
touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

Once F5 touches 3B R3 is no longer forced. It then reverts to the normal "run can't score when" exceptions.

So in the OP, the outfielder without security guard interference could not run down the ball and throw to 3B for a force on a runner who did not advance?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by umpjim

So in the OP, the outfielder without security guard interference could not run down the ball and throw to 3B for a force on a runner who did not advance?

Correct.

Note the penalty in 5.08 (4.09):

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to
and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire
shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and
order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner
refuses to advance to and touch first base, the
umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending
player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are
out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch
first base, the run shall count, but the offending player
shall be called out.


In this play, the only runner that needed to touch his base was the R3 touching home to score the run. The BR didn't even need to advance to first since there were less than two outs.

This is different from Fed, which requires all runners to touch (9-1-1 Note 2).

That video needs a "raving lunatic commentator" label on it.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Correct.

Note the penalty in 5.08 (4.09):

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to
and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire
shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and
order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner
refuses to advance to and touch first base, the
umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending
player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are
out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch
first base, the run shall count, but the offending player
shall be called out.

Wendelstedt says the when the ball is batted all runners must touch their advance bases. 5.08 (4.09) only apply to awarded bases. BRD says that rule only applies when runners are not in peril of being call out.

Wendelstedt says that when a batted ball is put into play all runners must touch their advance base. 5.08 (4.09) only applies to awarded bases. The BRD says that that rule applies only when runners are not in peril of being called out.


In this play, the only runner that needed to touch his base was the R3 touching home to score the run. The BR didn't even need to advance to first since there were less than two outs.

This is different from Fed, which requires all runners to touch (9-1-1 Note 2).

That video needs a "raving lunatic commentator" label on it.

Wendelstedt says that when the ball is batted all forced runners must touch their advance base. 5.08 (4.09) only apply for walks and HBP. BRD says the rule does not apply when runners are in peril of being called out.

[Welpe]

Please post citations from both.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DG

Game ending only. MLBUM 4.11 and rule 4.09b in 2014 book, 5.08b in the new recodified 2015 book. On any game ending play, walk, or hit batter with bases loaded R3 must touch home and BR must touch 1b before game ends. Security guard pickup appears irrelevant.

Except for the word "play" ... you are right until the last sentence...

If the security guard doesn't pick up the ball, and a fielder does... all you have is a force out at 2nd base.

[DG]

I think the security guard picking up the ball is not relevant because by the time he did BR has touched 1b and R3 has touched home and game is over.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Except for the word "play" ... you are right until the last sentence...

If the security guard doesn't pick up the ball, and a fielder does... all you have is a force out at 2nd base.

You also might have an appealed force out at 3B if you think R2 missed it before the appeal at 2B.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by umpjim

You also might have an appealed force out at 3B if you think R2 missed it before the appeal at 2B.

Except that they immediately threw it to, and touched, second base.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Except that they immediately threw it to, and touched, second base.

Again using Wendestedt, in OBR the order of forced base appeals does not matter. If the force existed at the time of the miss it is a forced base appeal. From the video it looks like R3 peeled off before getting to 3B before 2B was tagged. But, an academic exercise due to the security guard.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Again using Wendestedt, in OBR the order of forced base appeals does not matter. If the force existed at the time of the miss it is a forced base appeal. From the video it looks like R3 peeled off before getting to 3B before 2B was tagged. But, an academic exercise due to the security guard.

I guess what I was trying to say was that if the events happened just as they actually happened in the video, but it was a fielder who retrieved the ball instead of the guard, we simply have a force out at 2nd. I was not commenting on other plays that might have been available ... I was only commenting on what the ruling would be given what they actually did, only changing the person that retrieved the ball.

[ozzy6900]

I don't see what the confusion in this video is all about. In OBR, the lead runner must advance and touch home and the batter runner must touch 1st base. The other runners do not matter and the game is over. The security guard picking up the ball and the appeals are a mute point..... the game is over! What is so hard to understand? Why all the what if this and that?