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-   -   Walk-Off, I think (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/100019-walk-off-i-think.html)

MOofficial Mon Aug 10, 2015 05:53pm
Walk-Off, I think
 
I have a feeling this is correct, however, I would like the rules gurus to post the rule. Please see the link below to the video as I do not know how to imbed videos. Thanks!

MLB Tonight on D-backs' walk-off | MLB.com

DG Mon Aug 10, 2015 08:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOofficial (Post 965749)
I have a feeling this is correct, however, I would like the rules gurus to post the rule. Please see the link below to the video as I do not know how to imbed videos. Thanks!

MLB Tonight on D-backs' walk-off | MLB.com
More likely an interp. If batter reaches 1b and r3 touches home, game over. Walk off hit, outfield playing shallow since any long fly ball scores R3 easily, even if caught, with one out.

Rich Mon Aug 10, 2015 08:16pm
The guard / groundskeeper handled the ball.

Now it's an award. Only R3 and the BR have to advance on an award in MLB.

Had the player retrieved it....it would've been Merkle's Boner, 2015 version.

umpjim Mon Aug 10, 2015 08:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG (Post 965751)
More likely an interp. If batter reaches 1b and r3 touches home, game over. Walk off hit, outfield playing shallow since any long fly ball scores R3 easily, even if caught, with one out.
So on any batted ball the forced runners don't have to touch their advance base? Or is it any batted ball that everyone agrees is a walk off?
What interp is that?
Actually there is a poorly written rule that only requires the BR and R3 to touch on an award or "other play". That rule then has an interp that it doesn't apply on a batted ball.
Umps got taken off the hook by the security guard.

JJ Mon Aug 10, 2015 09:04pm
On an AWARDED base only R3 and the BR need to advance and touch. On a BATTED ball (base hit) EVERYONE needs to advance.

JJ

Rich Mon Aug 10, 2015 09:51pm
Yup. When the security guard picked it up....

DG Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 965753)
So on any batted ball the forced runners don't have to touch their advance base? Or is it any batted ball that everyone agrees is a walk off?
What interp is that?
Actually there is a poorly written rule that only requires the BR and R3 to touch on an award or "other play". That rule then has an interp that it doesn't apply on a batted ball.
Umps got taken off the hook by the security guard.
Game ending only. MLBUM 4.11 and rule 4.09b in 2014 book, 5.08b in the new recodified 2015 book. On any game ending play, walk, or hit batter with bases loaded R3 must touch home and BR must touch 1b before game ends. Security guard pickup appears irrelevant.

umpjim Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG (Post 965756)
Game ending only. MLBUM 4.11 and rule 4.09b, although the rule reference is from 2014 book. I don't know where it is in the new recodified 2015 book just yet. If R3 scored and BR touched 1b when guard picked up the ball, he is just cleaning up the field, otherwise fan interference and result is the same.
So when, with 1 out, with bases loaded, a ground ball is hit to F5 and due to convenience, he steps on 3B and throws to the closest base for the force at 2B the runner from third scores because he and the BR touched their proper bases?

Rich Ives Tue Aug 11, 2015 09:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 965757)
So when, with 1 out, with bases loaded, a ground ball is hit to F5 and due to convenience, he steps on 3B and throws to the closest base for the force at 2B the runner from third scores because he and the BR touched their proper bases?
No.

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in
the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other
play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire
shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has
touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

Once F5 touches 3B R3 is no longer forced. It then reverts to the normal "run can't score when" exceptions.

umpjim Tue Aug 11, 2015 09:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 965766)
No.

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in
the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other
play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire
shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has
touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

Once F5 touches 3B R3 is no longer forced. It then reverts to the normal "run can't score when" exceptions.

So in the OP, the outfielder without security guard interference could not run down the ball and throw to 3B for a force on a runner who did not advance?

Welpe Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 965767)
So in the OP, the outfielder without security guard interference could not run down the ball and throw to 3B for a force on a runner who did not advance?
Correct.

Note the penalty in 5.08 (4.09):

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to
and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire
shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and
order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner
refuses to advance to and touch first base, the
umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending
player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are
out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch
first base, the run shall count, but the offending player
shall be called out.


In this play, the only runner that needed to touch his base was the R3 touching home to score the run. The BR didn't even need to advance to first since there were less than two outs.

This is different from Fed, which requires all runners to touch (9-1-1 Note 2).

That video needs a "raving lunatic commentator" label on it.

umpjim Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 965768)
Correct.

Note the penalty in 5.08 (4.09):

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to
and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire
shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and
order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner
refuses to advance to and touch first base, the
umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending
player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are
out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch
first base, the run shall count, but the offending player
shall be called out.

Wendelstedt says the when the ball is batted all runners must touch their advance bases. 5.08 (4.09) only apply to awarded bases. BRD says that rule only applies when runners are not in peril of being call out.

Wendelstedt says that when a batted ball is put into play all runners must touch their advance base. 5.08 (4.09) only applies to awarded bases. The BRD says that that rule applies only when runners are not in peril of being called out.


In this play, the only runner that needed to touch his base was the R3 touching home to score the run. The BR didn't even need to advance to first since there were less than two outs.

This is different from Fed, which requires all runners to touch (9-1-1 Note 2).

That video needs a "raving lunatic commentator" label on it.
Wendelstedt says that when the ball is batted all forced runners must touch their advance base. 5.08 (4.09) only apply for walks and HBP. BRD says the rule does not apply when runners are in peril of being called out.

Welpe Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:05am
Please post citations from both.

Tim C Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:40am
DG I'm sorry but you just had a big swing a miss.

The OBR are quite specific in the difference between an awarded bass and runners that are advanced through a hit.

Think Merkel's boner.

rich identified early the issue was completely ball being handled by a Nonplaying employee – that ended any hope of any appeals.

there are many references available concerning the umpires press conference explanaio

umpjim Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 965770)
Please post citations from both.
I don't have a current BRD but a poster on another site quoted this from the BRD:

"In such a game-ending situation, where runners advance without peril of an out, only the runner from third and the batter-runner are required to advance and touch the next base (4.09b). - page 36."

My 2010 WUM on page 81 has this:

"This requirement for only the runner from third and the batter-runner to advance to their bases, only applies in this situation. With bases full, if runners are forced to advance by reason of the batter putting the ball in play, or because of an uncaught third strike, all runners will be required to advance and touch their next base in order for the game to be ended. If they do not advance to their next bases before defense puts them out...for the third out, no runs will score."

The first sentence refers the situation of a winning run walked in or by HBP.

Whether the current PBUC umpire school agrees with Wendelstedt and whether Wendelstedt still teaches it I don't know.


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