ASA Question

[IRISHMAFIA]

With two outs, R1 on 3B and R2 on 1B, B5 hits a ball that deflects off of F6's glove. B5 is obstructed rounding 1B and the base umpire signals obstruction. Prior to R2 reaching home plate, B5 is tagged out during a rundown going back to 1B. The plate umpire should:

a) signal that R2's run does not count.
b) hesitate to see if the base umpire enforces obstruction.
c) after play is completed, call "Dead Ball", confer with the base umpire, then rule if R2's run counts.
d) none of the above.

a) If the PU did not see the DDB signal, this would be correct
b) If the PU did see the DDB signal, this would be correct
c) If the PU did not see the DDB signal, why would he rule "Dead Ball". If he did see the DDB signal, that really isn't his call, though it would be correct in this situation.
d) I would have an easier time if it said "all of the above".

Thoughts?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Yeah, pretty bad wording. I suspect (no, I haven't seen the answer sheet, yet) the desired answer is "c". But, like you, I have issue with the statement. I always reply (smart a$$ that I am) with "No, you can't have 'Time' " when we already have a dead ball; I follow that up with "We already have time, and I don't dance to double time." Here's a case where "Dead Ball" should be called by the base umpire; after all, an obstructed runner cannot be called out between the two bases where obstructed, so proper mechanics have "Dead Ball" called, and the proper base awarded. Do they really want "Dead ball" on top of "Time"??

We don't have enough information to know if "a" is correct; "b" can only be correct if base umpire DOESN'T correctly call "Dead Ball". Surely we aren't to assume additional information.

[greymule]

I would say—

The plate umpire should:

c. (1) Watch as the base umpire calls "dead ball" and awards B5 the base he would have reached had there not been OBS, and then (2) rule on whether R2's run counts.

From his position, PU should be able to decide whether R2 would have scored absent the OBS, but he is free to confer with BU if necessary.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

From his position, PU should be able to decide whether R2 would have scored absent the OBS, but he is free to confer with BU if necessary.

Speaking ASA

The rule of thumb was that if a runner not affected by the OBS was between bases when the ball was ruled dead due to the OBS runner being put out, s/he would be placed on the base to which s/he was closest at the time of the dead ball being declared. IOW, if R2 was closer to home when B5 was tagged, s/he would be awarded home. If not, back to 3B.

It used to be in the rule book/manual, but I cannot find it (assuming it is still there).

[NCASAUmp]

Mike, I can't recall any wording like that in the book since I've started umpiring, but I think 8-5-B-2 covers it very well...

EFFECT: A dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and all other runners shall be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction.

While it doesn't use the same language you used, I think it's clear to me that if your judgment tells you that R2 would have clearly made it home had the obstruction (and resulting dead ball) had not happened, you should award R2 home.

Maybe you heard it phrased like that in a clinic or school? If so, I can't say I agree with the wording. I don't have a tape measure with me on the field, but it's my judgment based on what I see that determines "s/he would have or would not have made it home safely if there had been no OBS at 1B."

[CecilOne]

Considering the base umpire should call the dead ball, wouldn't that make the correct answer "d"?

Aside from "rounding 1B" only implies it was after passing the base.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Mike, I can't recall any wording like that in the book since I've started umpiring, but I think 8-5-B-2 covers it very well...

EFFECT: A dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and all other runners shall be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction.

POE 35, 2004 ASA rulebook: "If other runners are advancing when an umpire calls time following a play on an obstructed runner, a rule of thumb for placement of the other runners is: If they have not reached half way to the next base, they must return to the previous base. However, if they have advanced over half way, they are allowed to advance to the next base."

Disappeared in 2005. Personally, I feel the deletion of this statement is a mistake as it may create a problem with runner placement. As noted, the current rule (and RS) award other runners advancement based of being affected by obstruction.

Typically, other runners are not affected (directly) by obstruction; they are stopped mid-stride by an umpire calling dead ball. Thus they should advance or retreat based on umpire judgment of where they would have been had time not been called. (This is similar to an umpire calling time due to serious injury and subsequently placing runners that were stopped due to the time call.)

In the OP, using the current rulebook, I could have judged that had obstruction not occured, there would have been no run down, and that R2 would not had an opportunity to try for home; thus R2 would be returned to 3B.

However, if I rule only on R2's location at time of dead ball, I may have a different result.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Considering the base umpire should call the dead ball, wouldn't that make the correct answer "d"?

Aside from "rounding 1B" only implies it was after passing the base.

Not necessarily as A & B could be correct. As Steve noted, we really do not have enough information to state with certainty which answer is accurate.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

With two outs, R1 on 3B and R2 on 1B, B5 hits a ball that deflects off of F6's glove. B5 is obstructed rounding 1B and the base umpire signals obstruction. Prior to R2 reaching home plate, B5 is tagged out during a rundown going back to 1B. The plate umpire should:

a) signal that R2's run does not count.
b) hesitate to see if the base umpire enforces obstruction.
c) after play is completed, call "Dead Ball", confer with the base umpire, then rule if R2's run counts.
d) none of the above.

That is really a screwed up question / answers.

If you assume the BU was doing what the situation would require him to do... wait, you can't assume that because of choice b).

I suppose you CAN assume the PU sees the obstruction call, otherwise choices b) and c) make no sense. a) would be the normal call if OBS had not been signalled, so you can't tell from that answer what the PU saw or didn't see other than the tag and the position of R2 at the time of the tag.

Mike, can you find out who wrote this question and send him that fickle finger trophy?

[greymule]

I went back to the 1998 book to find the "halfway" rule of thumb. I didn't realize it disappeared in 2005.

Maybe ASA figured that with multiple runners (and so many one-man games), determining who was more or less than halfway might be too difficult.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

I went back to the 1998 book to find the "halfway" rule of thumb. I didn't realize it disappeared in 2005.

Maybe ASA figured that with multiple runners (and so many one-man games), determining who was more or less than halfway might be too difficult.

Well, if it is a toss-up, I'm certainly not going to deter the proper advancement of the runners of the offended team because someone doesn't want to keep something simple and informative in a rule book.