a11 Offense - 11 potentially eligible receivers

[BktBallRef]

Has anyone else heard of this offense?

http://a11offense.blogspot.com/2007/...1-offense.html

They take advantage of the numbering exception. They put 11 players on the field with eligible numbers, put a snapper over the ball and then shift 6 of the remaining 10 players on the LOS just before the snap. They leave 2 players 7 yards deep who can take the snap. It's confusing for the defense because they have no idea who will be eligible until just before the snap.

[LDUB]

Yes, it has been discussed before. A video can be seen here.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...03501262187897

[BktBallRef]

I searched a11 but didnt find it.

The video I saw didn't show the pre-snap shifting so it was difficult to assess.

[LDUB]

A-11 Offense ??

[JugglingReferee]

This offense wouldn't work in Canadian ball because our mechanics dictate that we verbalize to B who the ineligible receivers are that do not conform to the numbering rule, and who the eligible receivers are that do not conform to the numbering rule. How do we know? Team A is required to tell us.

[TXMike]

I received a DVD yesterday of a game this team in action. There is not a whole lot of shifting or motion and it is generally done legally. There did appear to be a lot of fouls by the offense for something procedural. I did not see what they were although the announcer typically said "illegal procedure". (R was not miked and the DVD did not include his signals) Perhaps the refs were flagging the formation as it did appear at times they may have had some mugwomps.

Bottom line, will not work in NCAA because of the numbering issue. And if your Federation chiefs have any sense they will act in the offseason to incorporate a similar numbering rule to the NCAA to shut down this BS. Anyone who studies the history of American football knows how this violates the spirit of the rules. I am also surprised at how apparently defensive coaches where this team plays have not managed to figure out how easy it is to defend. In this video they have kids playing "pass defense" on clearly ineligible (by position) receivers.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: For the Fed types who may wonder what TxMike meant by the 'numbering issue,' the NCAA recognizes a scrimmage kick formation (and the numbering exception that goes along with it) only when it's "...obvious that a kick might be attempted." Therefore, in general this offense couldn't be used on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd downs in NCAA.

Mike, I watched the YouTube video provided by the coach and, even though you could not read the numbers, I also saw mugwumps on just about every play. I feel that their strategy is to bring them as close to the LOS as the officials will let them just to add to the uncertainty of who's eligible.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: For the Fed types who may wonder what TxMike meant by the 'numbering issue,' the NCAA recognizes a scrimmage kick formation (and the numbering exception that goes along with it) only when it's "...obvious that a kick might be attempted." Therefore, in general this offense couldn't be used on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd downs in NCAA.

Mike, I watched the YouTube video provided by the coach and, even though you could not read the numbers, I also saw mugwumps on just about every play. I feel that their strategy is to bring them as close to the LOS as the officials will let them just to add to the uncertainty of who's eligible.

Another point about the NCAA is that once the center is over the ball, and the numbering exception has been recognized ie numbers 45 and 43 being in what would be normal guard positions, and 32 and 87 being in the tackle positions and "covered" by the players on the end of the line, any shift that "exposes" any of these players results in an illegal formation...once they are part of the exception (not having 5 plyers numbered 50-79), they remain ineligible....

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Bottom line, will not work in NCAA because of the numbering issue. And if your Federation chiefs have any sense they will act in the offseason to incorporate a similar numbering rule to the NCAA to shut down this BS. Anyone who studies the history of American football knows how this violates the spirit of the rules. I am also surprised at how apparently defensive coaches where this team plays have not managed to figure out how easy it is to defend. In this video they have kids playing "pass defense" on clearly ineligible (by position) receivers.

Agreed. If this thing becomes very widespread, I believe they'll make it illegal as well.

Originally Posted by Bob M.

Mike, I watched the YouTube video provided by the coach and, even though you could not read the numbers, I also saw mugwumps on just about every play. I feel that their strategy is to bring them as close to the LOS as the officials will let them just to add to the uncertainty of who's eligible.

That is exactly their strategy.

Originally Posted by cmathews

Another point about the NCAA is that once the center is over the ball, and the numbering exception has been recognized ie numbers 45 and 43 being in what would be normal guard positions, and 32 and 87 being in the tackle positions and "covered" by the players on the end of the line, any shift that "exposes" any of these players results in an illegal formation...once they are part of the exception (not having 5 plyers numbered 50-79), they remain ineligible....

The problem is they're not assuming "normal guard positions" until just before the snap.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by cmathews

Another point about the NCAA is that once the center is over the ball, and the numbering exception has been recognized ie numbers 45 and 43 being in what would be normal guard positions, and 32 and 87 being in the tackle positions and "covered" by the players on the end of the line, any shift that "exposes" any of these players results in an illegal formation...once they are part of the exception (not having 5 plyers numbered 50-79), they remain ineligible....

REPLY: That's correct...I had forgotten to mention that. In Fed, just like NCAA, anyone lining up in or shifting to an ineligible position does remain ineligible throughout the down. Only difference is in Fed, no illegal formation.

[Forksref]

I hope it's made illegal before it gets widespread. It would be a nightmare for officials. Can you imagine if they ran no-huddle with this?

We already have no numbering requirements in our 9-man ball, but then again, it's only 9 players to worry about.

Gotta give 'em a C for creativity, though.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Anyone who studies the history of American football knows how this violates the spirit of the rules.

I don't see how you can say that, given that eligible receiver numbering rules weren't introduced until decades after the forward pass was legalized.

[TXMike]

In NCAA rules, forward passes were first allowed in 1906. At the same time, the rulemakers recognized the need for limiting eligibility and that change which authorized one forward pass said there had to be 7 players on the line of scrimmage and only the 2 on the ends would be eligible to receive that now legal forward pass. At that time, nobody was numbered. The requirement to even have numbers came in the game did not come until 1937. By 1966 teams were taking advantage of the rules and running tackle eligible passes. So to address this inequity, the rulemakers first required there be 5 players numbered 50-79 on the line of scrimmage and all 5 would be ineligible. This was not loosened until 1981 when the specific exception was put in for scrimmage kick situations. And even then, those who were coming into the game as exceptions had to report to the U so he could advise the defense.

The point is that the rules have been clear, since the advent of the forward pass, that only certain players should be eligible so as to keep the game balanced for offense and defense. The A11 offense is a clear attempt to circumvent this history of balance keeping.


(The high school federation left the NCAA in 1930 so I can't speak to what they did from 1930 on. )

[dvasques]

Does that mean that I can have only 4 players numbered from 50-79 or 90-99 on the line on offense? And have on eligible numbered playerd "covered" on the line to play as an OT, for exemple?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dvasques

Does that mean that I can have only 4 players numbered from 50-79 or 90-99 on the line on offense? And have on eligible numbered playerd "covered" on the line to play as an OT, for exemple?

I don't understand your question, so I'll simply explain the rule.

Unless you're NOT in a scrimmage kick formation, you must have 5 linemen, numbered 50-79 on the LOS at the snap.