Illegal sub or partic. on the Receivers

[BoBo]

Had this discussion and was wondering what you may call or interpret?

A is in scrimmage kick formation (punting on 4th down)

It is 4th and 8 from K's 42 we will say.

R34 comes onto the field late and the ball is snapped and we have a legal scrimmage kick.

Covering official has a flag for 12 players on the field.

In situation 1 we will say R34 enters the game but never participates in the play since it went to the other side of the field.

Will this result in Illegal substitution or participation?


In situation 2 we will say R34 blocks on the return.

Will this result in Illegal substitution or participation?


The other question we posed where is the enforcement spots. Since the block in #2 takes place after the snap does it now become a post scrimmage kick foul?

We have never had it but one of the crew members threw it out and got is all thinking.

Happy to hear your comments, thoughts and rulings by the book please.

[BulldogMcC]

A) Illegal Participation since they have 12 players at the snap and none of them is attempting to get off the field. If R34 recognizes the situation and tries to get off the field and does not otherwise participate it would only be illegal substitution, but if none of the 12 R players are attempting to leave the field, it is illegal participation whether R34 actually gets involved with the play on the far sideline or not.

B) Illegal Participation.

Enforcement spot for IP when 12 players are at the snap is the previous spot so no it is not a PSK. In #2, there are 12 players participating, since R34 was on the field at the snap. If the snap was before R34 entered the field, the spot would be where R34 entered, not anywhere where he may have blocked or otherwise participate in the play.

[mcrowder]

"Does not participate because the kick went to the other side of the field..."

THIS IS NOT "not participating".

Not participating is usually - realizing he shouldn't have been out there and immediately (but after the snap) running off the field, AND causing no opposing player to react to him. It could also possibly be just standing there after the kick only if the opposing team did not react to him.

Even if the play went away from him, if he was on the field and affect ANYTHING (causing the other team to line up against him, or causing any player to go around him) - that's participation.

In both of these, the IP was pre-kick. I believe it would require an entry to the field AFTER the kick was made to make this a post-scrimmage-kick foul.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by mcrowder
"Does not participate because the kick went to the other side of the field..."

THIS IS NOT "not participating".

Not participating is usually - realizing he shouldn't have been out there and immediately (but after the snap) running off the field, AND causing no opposing player to react to him. It could also possibly be just standing there after the kick only if the opposing team did not react to him.

Even if the play went away from him, if he was on the field and affect ANYTHING (causing the other team to line up against him, or causing any player to go around him) - that's participation.

In both of these, the IP was pre-kick. I believe it would require an entry to the field AFTER the kick was made to make this a post-scrimmage-kick foul.

The substitute would have to enter after the snap and the spot that he entered would have to be beyond the expanded neutral zone to qualify for PSK.

[mcrowder]

Explain please.

(Why after the SNAP as opposed to after the KICK, and why does his position on the field when entering matter?

[andy1033]

If he enters during the down and participates this is a live ball foul at the spot he participated. If he does not influence the play this is a basic spot foul for illegal participation.

[Edited by andy1033 on Oct 21st, 2005 at 02:20 PM]

[Jim S]

Illegal participation of this type is now a spot foul. See the change to 9.6.4a.
So, with all-but-one you may need the spot of entry to use as an enforcement spot.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Explain please.

(Why after the SNAP as opposed to after the KICK, and why does his position on the field when entering matter?

Under Fed rules, PSK requires that a foul by R be committed before the kick ends. So the time period that a PSK foul can occur starts with the snap and ends when the kick ends. The kick has nothing to do with except fulfill one of ther equirements for PSK enforcement.

2-16-2g:Post Scrimate Kick - a foul by R when the foul occurs:

• 1)During scrimmage kick plays, other than a try or successful field goal.
• 2)During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone
• 3)Beyond the expanded neutral zone
• 4)Before the kick ends
• 5)And K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends and will not be next to put the ball in play.

If the 12th player is on the field at the snap, per 9-4-2 The basic spot is the previous spot: (a) For a foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap or free kick. So if the 12th player is on the field at the snap, it is a foul simultaneous with the snap, previous spot enforcement and that is not beyond the neutral zone so #3 above is not satisified. However, Illegal Participation for player, substitute or replaced player that enters during the down 9-6-4a, is a spot foul where the player enters. If this spot is beyond the expanded neutral zone, it qualifies under #3 for PSK enforcement as long as the other 4 elements are also satisifed.

[Edit: Situation: K's ball 4th and 4 from their own 35 yard line. R34, believing he is the 11th man when in reality there are already 11 R players on the field enters (a) before the snap, (b) after the snap and enters the field at K's 33 yard line or (c) after the snap and enters the field at K's 44 yard line. In all three cases K7 legally punts the ball which is caught in flight by R37 at R's 35 yard line and returned to K's 10 yard line where he is tackled in bounds. Illegal participation in A, B and C. In A, the foul is simultaneous with the snap, so we use the previous spot. K may accept the penalty and keep the ball, 1st and 10 for K at the 50 yard line. In B, the foul is not beyond the expanded neutral zone, since this is a spot foul at the 33, it is therefor not a PSK foul. We have a foul by R during a loose ball play, we will use previous spot enforcement, K may again keep the ball, 1st and ten for K at the 50. In C, the spot of the foul is the 44 yard line, which is beyond the expanded neutral zone. In C all five elements of a PSK foul are present and this foul if accepted has only the PSK enforcement option. The kick ended when R37 caught the ball at R's 35, so when K accepts the penalty, R will be awarded 1st and 10 at their own 20 yard line. Bonus points for me, the clock will start on the snap in (a), (b) and (c).]

[Edited by BulldogMcC on Oct 21st, 2005 at 02:39 PM]

[Smiley]

Under the rule change this year, in B and C, doesn't the entering player have to attempt to participate for there to be a foul?

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by Smiley
Under the rule change this year, in B and C, doesn't the entering player have to attempt to participate for there to be a foul?

First 10-4-2a in my previous post for Basic spot.

Second, no the rule change was really to illegal substitution. You can and should flag for illegal substitution if a substitute enters the field during the down and immediately retreats. Anything short of failing to be leaving the field is participation. Failing to get off the field in time is illegal substitution. Read the comments in the case book for rule 9-6.

If a substitute enters the field during the down it is illegal participation and enforced from the basic spot. NOTE: Based on the rules change, officials are strongly encouraged to make certain that the substitute's entry into the field had some impact on the play and was not incidental to viewing the game or simply being in the bench area.

If a substitute enters the field and make no attempts to leave he has particpated. What they don't want us to do is ding a team for 15 yards when a player enters the field in error and retreats immediately or enters accidently because they were not paying attention to their location with respect to the sideline. In the example I gave, R34 thought he was the 11th player and entered the field. It was not a mistake or accidental and he did not immediatle retreat which would have made it IS.

Edit: Actually, by rule it is IP, but I know we would call it as an IS.]

[Edited by BulldogMcC on Oct 21st, 2005 at 04:43 PM]

[Smiley]

In the case book Comments on the 2005 Rules Revisions, the statement is made (and was emphasized in our state meeting in TN) that in order to be considered to have entered, the player, replaced player, or substitute should be viewed by the official as attempting to become part of the play. We were told to disregard if the player comes in away from the play. In no way can you call this IS. It's either IP or it's nothing.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by Smiley
In the case book Comments on the 2005 Rules Revisions, the statement is made (and was emphasized in our state meeting in TN) that in order to be considered to have entered, the player, replaced player, or substitute should be viewed by the official as attempting to become part of the play. We were told to disregard if the player comes in away from the play. In no way can you call this IS. It's either IP or it's nothing.

You're right, I didn't like my answer, was researching the book but had to run for pizza. IS is only for the 12th man that doesn't get off the field, simultaneous with the snap. Actually, I quoted the exact comment revision on the NFHS website. They don't want people that accidentally or inadvertently step onto the field to get hit with IP, but they do want someone that enters to join the play banged whether they actually get in the play or not. They did not delete or modify the wording of 9.6.4 Situation C so entering the field intentionally, regardless of whether you get in on the play, is IP. My bad for trying to stretch it IS.

[Edited by BulldogMcC on Oct 21st, 2005 at 05:16 PM]

[andy1033]

Smiley is right. Same thing in NY. He must participate or influence theplay. IP or nothing.

[Forksref]

Originally posted by Jim S
Illegal participation of this type is now a spot foul. See the change to 9.6.4a.
So, with all-but-one you may need the spot of entry to use as an enforcement spot.

Just like receiver running out of bounds and then back in. Flag where he came back in.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Smiley
In the case book Comments on the 2005 Rules Revisions, the statement is made (and was emphasized in our state meeting in TN) that in order to be considered to have entered, the player, replaced player, or substitute should be viewed by the official as attempting to become part of the play. We were told to disregard if the player comes in away from the play. In no way can you call this IS. It's either IP or it's nothing.

REPLY: Harry, I agree...that's exactly what the case book says and what we've been told also. BUT...what if he doesn't attempt to participate, but still enters the field after the snap? The Fed conveniently took out the rule which used to cover that. Check your 2004 rule books. It was NF 3-7-1. I think they created a gap by making the entry of a substitute IP, but then instructing us not to call it IP if it wasn't clear that the sub's intention was to participate.