Batter hit after swing

[Hoosier_Dave]

1. Batter squares to bunt. Pitch is low and really inside and hits batter. Batter tries to avoid getting hit and in the process doesn't pull the bunt back. I called a strike because the play takes precedence. Coach agreed with call. What is the status of ball? I called dead ball which would be the case if batted ball hits batter. Can't find the rule to support this.

2. What is your opinion about the catcher chattering (Hey, batter, batter) at the batter while pitcher is in motion? I maintain that this gives the defense an unfair advantage, so I don't allow it. The players in the field and in the dugout can yell as loudly and as much as they want, just not the catcher. Had a player question me last nite on this; said she couldn't find it in the rules. I told her I consider it catcher obstruction 8-1D. Rereading 8-1D there's nothing mentioned about verbal obstruction. However, NF has verbal obstruction.

What's your opine?

[gsf23]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

1. Batter squares to bunt. Pitch is low and really inside and hits batter. Batter tries to avoid getting hit and in the process doesn't pull the bunt back. I called a strike because the play takes precedence. Coach agreed with call. What is the status of ball? I called dead ball which would be the case if batted ball hits batter. Can't find the rule to support this.

2. What is your opinion about the catcher chattering (Hey, batter, batter) at the batter while pitcher is in motion? I maintain that this gives the defense an unfair advantage, so I don't allow it. The players in the field and in the dugout can yell as loudly and as much as they want, just not the catcher. Had a player question me last nite on this; said she couldn't find it in the rules. I told her I consider it catcher obstruction 8-1D. Rereading 8-1D there's nothing mentioned about verbal obstruction. However, NF has verbal obstruction.

What's your opine?

#1 - I have a dead ball, HBP, batter take your base. Even though the bat wasn't pulled back, from what you describe I don't see any attempt by the batter to bunt the ball.

#2 - As the pitcher is in motion I think I would try to quell that, but anytime other than that I don't mind. I don't see any problem with the catcher chattering at the batter between pitches, while giving signs things like that, unless it starts to border on taunting.

[CecilOne]

for #1 - the only rules that require a pull back are NCAA

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

1. Batter squares to bunt. Pitch is low and really inside and hits batter. Batter tries to avoid getting hit and in the process doesn't pull the bunt back. I called a strike because the play takes precedence. Coach agreed with call. What is the status of ball? I called dead ball which would be the case if batted ball hits batter. Can't find the rule to support this.

Speaking ASA

As others have said, it doesn't appear that the batter attempted to hit the ball, so it can only be a strike if the ball was in the strike zone when hitting the batter which you have discounted by your description.

2. What is your opinion about the catcher chattering (Hey, batter, batter) at the batter while pitcher is in motion? I maintain that this gives the defense an unfair advantage, so I don't allow it. The players in the field and in the dugout can yell as loudly and as much as they want, just not the catcher. Had a player question me last nite on this; said she couldn't find it in the rules. I told her I consider it catcher obstruction 8-1D. Rereading 8-1D there's nothing mentioned about verbal obstruction. However, NF has verbal obstruction.

Still speaking ASA

No, no member of the defense can talk or yell at the opposition. However, it is not catcher's obstruction. It is, in my judgment, unsportsmanlike conduct.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

1. Batter squares to bunt. Pitch is low and really inside and hits batter. Batter tries to avoid getting hit and in the process doesn't pull the bunt back. I called a strike because the play takes precedence. Coach agreed with call. What is the status of ball? I called dead ball which would be the case if batted ball hits batter. Can't find the rule to support this.

Whose rules? As Cecil said, NCAA requires the bat to be withdrawn. So does AFA (or at least they did in 2004 - the latest AFA book I have). But, even if I was calling this with AFA rules, I would not have ruled that a bunt attempt. Clearly, the batter was attempting to avoid the pitch, not bunt the ball. Maybe you are looking for something too literal in "pulling the bat back" ... did the bat really remain stationary over the plate while the batter was moving to avoid? That'd be some body control!

Anytime the batter is hit with a pitch, it is a dead ball. What happens after the ball is dead depends, but this certainly sounds like a HBP with an award of 1B.

Mike covered the "hey batter..." stuff.

[Hoosier_Dave]

1. The batter had squared to bunt when pitcher started her motion. Ball was low. Batter was trying to follow pitch down to bunt. In my opinion, she was trying to bunt it. The ball hit her in the foot before she could make contact. Still same call?

2. Where is unsportsmanlike conduct covered in the rules?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

1. The batter had squared to bunt when pitcher started her motion. Ball was low. Batter was trying to follow pitch down to bunt. In my opinion, she was trying to bunt it. The ball hit her in the foot before she could make contact. Still same call?

2. Where is unsportsmanlike conduct covered in the rules?

1. You've removed the "tried to avoid" part and added an "offer" at the pitch. This is a dead ball strike.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

2. Where is unsportsmanlike conduct covered in the rules?

You're kidding, right? Speaking ASA, it is referenced throughout the rules as necessary. USC is umpire's judgment. There is no definitive rule to determine what is or isn't USC.

If you need a written rule to define USC before enforcing it, well, nevermind.

[Hoosier_Dave]

Don't bash me too much. I haven't had the rules book very long. I'm used to football rules that has a specific section for conduct of players and specifically defines USC. Also, football clinics specifically spell out what is and is not taunting.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Hoosier_Dave

Don't bash me too much. I haven't had the rules book very long. I'm used to football rules that has a specific section for conduct of players and specifically defines USC. Also, football clinics specifically spell out what is and is not taunting.

Let me ask you this: If a football player did something you considered compeltely disgusting and an act of unsportsmanlike conduct that wasn't listed anywhere or mentioned in any clinic, would you ignore it or throw the flag?

[HawkeyeCubP]

Not trying to get myself berated here - but this is similar to the verbal obstruction/disconcertion/USC thread I started last week.

What Hoosier is getting at is that literally everything you could drum up as far as being possible USC in NFHS football (and basketball) is usually specifically addressed either in the Rule Book, the Case Book, or, as things come up, in the Points of Emphasis and Rule Changes from year to year, and if not specifically addressed, can be easily fit into the constraints of something that is defined or described in said sections as USC, flagrant misconduct, etc. And not to desparage ASA (I love it, and it sounds like what the powers that be are in the process of doing is going to be great, in terms of changing and revising the rule book) these are things that are largely currently lacking in the ASA Rule and Case Book.

(This is me cringing as I await the responses from the strongly "anti-specifying" posters.)

Understand, also, that I only work ASA slow pitch, so I am admittedly uneducated on what NFHS softball policies and rules are, other than what I learn here. And perhaps that is why ASA operates the way it does, and doesn't put out a case book every year, etc.

[Aside: That being said, in my lowly opinion, I have to say that the ASA Rule Book and ASA Umpire Tests are, by far, and unfortunately, the worst among themselves and their NFHS football and basketball counterparts, especially in terms of mispelling (test), grammar (test), index referencing (rule book), and outdated material (rule book) (and the Case Book leaves a lot to be desired as well, in terms of being far too brief in certain areas). I suppose that is a topic for another thread, however. Just FYI, I feel bad even typing that. Not sure why.]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Actually, much of ASA's rules are intentionally generic. It took years to develop the rule book to get it where it is and that's fine by me. Every little possibility cannot be addressed. There are umpires who work the highest level ball that do not know some of the basic rules applications even with the book as it stands. What would it be like if many of the rules for everything including the "it could happen once every other decade" application were included?

Rant on!

Last year at the Hooters, in his clinic, Bernie went over a few rules including the old standard about a runner leaving 1B early and being between 2B & 3B when the outfielder releases the ball which goes out of play and the bases awarded. Out of the 15 Elite umpires, only one got it right. Even after reviewing the different possible answers, only one stood on the initial correct response. Happy to say, that umpire frequents this board daily. Two years ago, Bernie was irate because less than half the Elite umpires couldn't properly execute a overhand out.

Yes, ASA leaves a lot to interpretation and judgment. That's why there are clinics. For some of you folks in areas that do not hold regular clinics, that puts you at a disadvantage. For those of you who have UICs that do not attend the National Clinics or spend more time in the hotel bar than the break-out sessions, that puts you at a disadvantage. For those of you who have UICs which don't follow what is going on in the ASA world and just don't believe that a rule change was for real so they do not instruct the umpires in their area to call it, that puts you at a disadvantage. For those of you who live in an area where "schools" are not offered, that puts you at a disadvantage and often, it affects veteran umpires who attend a National School and, in turn, places them at a disadvantage.

Last year I received a call from an umpire who wanted to know if it was worth going to a regional clinic featuring Craig Cress and Kevin Ryan. I told the umpire that he will get the same rule changes and interpretations that I will offer at the state clinic, but this clinic gives you the opportunity to discuss the issues with people who are in a position to alter any problems or shortcomings if found. Turned out this umpire didn't go to the regional clinic, but didn't attend the state clinic either.

The problem is that there are too many umpires like the one above who is less worried about knowledge and performance and more about their wallet. Don't get me wrong, I understand that is a serious issue and problem with many people in this country. The problem is that many of these umpires, including veterans, do not attend the clinics that are available. Even when some do, Old Sam prefers to hang in the back of the hall and hold their own little mini-clinics and tell war stories instead of paying attention to the person offering the most recent information from Oklahoma City. Please note, I never charge anyone for a rules clinic, unless it's a coach/player who wants it on the field during a game.

Yes, I know this doesn't happen everywhere, but it happens enough and I'm not just talking about ASA.

Rant off!

Meanwhile, I have no problem with ASA's test and I do take it without the book. Are there some vague questions in it? Damn right. Do you know why?

Obviously, I'm biased in my assessment, but then again, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[CecilOne]

I guess I would award home for "runner leaving 1B early and being between 2B & 3B when the outfielder releases the ball which goes out of play" and then hope for the appeal out at 1st. But every season, I have to check on which rules allow returning to tag on a dead ball and which don't.

[Dakota]

Hawkeye, first of all, you cannot compare NFHS anything with general amateur rule books in matters dealing with USC and misbehavior. Generic amateur rule books (and their associated interpretation publications) deal with everything from little kids to adults. NFHS deals exclusively with school children. That difference is not just in matters of age; it is also in the school's role of in loco parentis. The NFHS softball rule book goes into more detail on USC and behavior issues than does the ASA rule book, but from what you are saying, still probably waaaaayyy less detail than the NFHS football book.

Having said all of that, two things... the frequency of grammatical, word usage, and syntax errors in ASA publications is a matter of somewhat regular discussion here. Hang around.

Second, the ASA rules interpretations publications (Case Book, POEs, clinic teaching material, umpire manual, etc.) are light years ahead of the NFHS Softball publications in terms of both detailed rulings and depth of situations covered. The NFHS POEs are particularly meager to the point of complete uselessness.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...Out of the 15 Elite umpires, only one got it right. Even after reviewing the different possible answers, only one stood on the initial correct response. Happy to say, that umpire frequents this board daily....

Bet I can guess who that umpire is, too!