Batter back swing hits F2?

[GeoCBlu]

Have had two sit's recently (Fed ball) where catcher has been hit by the back swing of batter usually due to batter letting go of top hand on bat. Catcher was in his proper position as was batter. In only one of the cases was catcher making a play on a runner stealing and was unsuccessful as a result. In the first (no play being made) plate umpire made no call. In the second BR was called out and runner was returned. In the second F2 was hurt pretty bad.

Tried unsuccessfully in either rule or case book to find specifics on issues regarding "back swing" so assume it is the same whether you interfere with catcher period if catcher is in the process of making a play. Most of our discussions surrounded the issue of protecting F2 from physical harm and whether batter is responsible for controlling their back swing in all cases or only when F2 is attempting a play. Would love to have some help here especially if you have any references that can help.

[bluezebra]

This happened in a game last week at Mavericks Stadium (Class A, Cal League). There were no runners, so there was no interference. The catcher had to be replaced, ans was taken to the hospital. He was back the next night, but was the DH for the next few games.

Bob

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by GeoCBlu
Have had two sit's recently (Fed ball) where catcher has been hit by the back swing of batter usually due to batter letting go of top hand on bat. Catcher was in his proper position as was batter. In only one of the cases was catcher making a play on a runner stealing and was unsuccessful as a result. In the first (no play being made) plate umpire made no call. In the second BR was called out and runner was returned. In the second F2 was hurt pretty bad.

Tried unsuccessfully in either rule or case book to find specifics on issues regarding "back swing" so assume it is the same whether you interfere with catcher period if catcher is in the process of making a play. Most of our discussions surrounded the issue of protecting F2 from physical harm and whether batter is responsible for controlling their back swing in all cases or only when F2 is attempting a play. Would love to have some help here especially if you have any references that can help.

OBR has the concept of "weak interference" -- FED doesn't (at least in this situation).

USe 7.3.5F as the reference -- specifically the last sentence of the ruling.

[nine01c]

OBR 6.06(c) footnote states:
If the batter strikes at the ball and misses and swings so hard he carries the bat all the way around and, in the umpire's judgement, unintentionally hits the catcher or the ball in back of him on the backswing before the catcher has securely held the ball, it shall be called a strike only (not interference). The ball will be dead, no runner shall advance on the play.

I think the key words here are "unintentionally," and "before the catcher has securely held the ball."

Usually this happens so quick, it is unintentional, and you have nothing, as stated above. I don't know if FED ruling is different.

[ohiogray]

Not to clear here but was the back swing performed by the same batter?

Being we are talking safety here, did anyone inform the BR to keep both hands on the bat?

Could we have possibly positioned the catcher back in his box if he had the room?

[GeoCBlu]

Thank you all for your replies especially the rule and case references. This has been very helpful.

[ohiogray]

Tee

I knew when taking my field there were a lot of responsibilities that came with it.

I suppose then the one thing that is ALWAYS stressed is Safey, wherever you go and whatever level you are at. Does it really matter on what level it is? Safety is and always will be a factor. Every thing you come in contact with whether it be sports, home or work has some degree of a safety factor that enters or at least should.

We as officials should ensure the safety of the coaches by making sure they are wearing their helmets (1st and 3rd should they be a player). The catcher wears equipment for a reason and why is he made to wear a cup, just because it is a rule? Why do we know check for the BESR embossment? Why do we check for the NOCSAE on helmets? I do not think, scratch that I know we do not do it only because it is a made up rule but we do it for safety and in some cases liability reasons.

If you wish to stand by on your field and allow the injury of a player in front of you with your knowledge that you could have prevented it then you live with it. I am sorry I could not be that way.

You mean to tell me that you or anyone else who has had a batter either slightly out of the batter's box or foot on the line of the box, you spoke nothing or warned that batter? Enough said.

[Mattinglyfan]

I was schooled in hitting from the Walt Hriniak theory. One of his concepts is that releasing your top hand through your swing, enables you head to stay more stationary.
From time to time I would follow through and catch the catcher's glove. I would get a warning, and the catcher would get the message to take a step back.
One game I hit the catcher in the mitt knocking it down the first base line. The umpire gave me a warning, and told the catcher to take a step back. The catcher came up with the bright idea that if I was up with runners on, and he took a step up putting himself in range of my back swing, then it might be an easy out.
This time he stood up so much that I hit him across the face, and the ball went out of the park. 3 run shot and a bump on the head. We both got another warning.

[Tim C]

OG:

There seem to be two separate items covered in the original post (the way that I read it):

1) A hitter who after swinging at the ball strikes the catcher with the backlash of the bat and,
2) A hitter that steps out of the box with both feet while taking a sign and is “directed” back into the box under the threat of a strike being called.

If I have misunderstood these points I apologize.

All that said these are my two specific points for these items:

1) I will not get into an inane discussion about safety. It is important. All umpires should have safety in their mind . . . however it is not the only thing going.

The example of the batter swinging through is an example of a “big boy” ball hazard. That is just the “rub of the green” in ball played by older players. No umpire has the right to tell a catcher where to set up or to tell a batter how to bat . . . an umpire has the responsibility to NOT insert himself into a game other than just to “report” what happens. Any umpire that tries to position a catcher is guilty of being OOO.

2) The second issue appears to me to be quite simple (if I read the question correctly). We all know that a hitter, under any set of rules, must take a stance with both feet within the lines of the batter’s box (if not a hitter could legally take a stance where his feet where actually on Home Plate) so that cannot really be the issue.

This means that we are dealing with a hitter that steps out of the box with both feet to take a sign or re-compose himself.

Since the rule was rewritten I do not know one umpire in my local or college association that has called a “penalty” strike.

Now I ‘think’ this is what the question asks in the original post. So the ONLY time a ‘penalty’ strike is called if the game is delayed. This is not just a FED rule as we know that OBR has a directed pitch.

OG, safety is “A” priority but not the “ONLY” priority.

Tee

[chris s]

Originally posted by Tim C
OG:

There seem to be two separate items covered in the original post (the way that I read it):

1) A hitter who after swinging at the ball strikes the catcher with the backlash of the bat and,
2) A hitter that steps out of the box with both feet while taking a sign and is “directed” back into the box under the threat of a strike being called.

If I have misunderstood these points I apologize.

All that said these are my two specific points for these items:

1) I will not get into an inane discussion about safety. It is important. All umpires should have safety in their mind . . . however it is not the only thing going.

The example of the batter swinging through is an example of a “big boy” ball hazard. That is just the “rub of the green” in ball played by older players. No umpire has the right to tell a catcher where to set up or to tell a batter how to bat . . . an umpire has the responsibility to NOT insert himself into a game other than just to “report” what happens. Any umpire that tries to position a catcher is guilty of being OOO.

2) The second issue appears to me to be quite simple (if I read the question correctly). We all know that a hitter, under any set of rules, must take a stance with both feet within the lines of the batter’s box (if not a hitter could legally take a stance where his feet where actually on Home Plate) so that cannot really be the issue.

This means that we are dealing with a hitter that steps out of the box with both feet to take a sign or re-compose himself.

Since the rule was rewritten I do not know one umpire in my local or college association that has called a “penalty” strike.

Now I ‘think’ this is what the question asks in the original post. So the ONLY time a ‘penalty’ strike is called if the game is delayed. This is not just a FED rule as we know that OBR has a directed pitch.

OG, safety is “A” priority but not the “ONLY” priority.

Tee

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Tee, ever told a catcher to stop "popping" or you just aint gonna see that corner breaking ball at the knees??? I do know you are much bigger than me(, but I would rather let F2 know he's "popping" than have the coach *****in bout me missing pitches. And, yes, I have seen this in the big boy leagues, not JUCO, yet.........

[GeoCBlu]

I'm afraid we're a little off track from my original post but those things seem to happen here from time to time. I was only interested specifically in what happens with a back swing that makes contact with a catcher which has been asked and answered in the first couple of posts. Don't know where the issue of being out of the box came from except that my original post made mention that all players were in their proper positions just to make it clear that this was not a feet out of the box issue to begin with.

Tee has made his case very clearly that he does not feel we have the right to influence, suggest, or demand that catcher's move back to avoid being hit. Indeed, I feel that player's at the Fed level (varsity for sure maybe not Frsh or JV because they're still learning) should know all the rules. Now in my situations the catcher has always made a comment to me after being struck by the bat something of the nature, "hey blue tell him to watch his bat" whereupon the response to the catcher can be (if he's still conscious) a clear explanation that there is no foul (unless of course the catcher is attempting a play somewhere) and that he may choose to move himself out of harm's way or up his health insurance.

I think we have thoroughly though now beat this one to death guys, thanks for everyone's input.