Question for the white hats.

[sloth]

As a first year referee, I wanted to bounch this off some more seasoned officials.

I have a long run by A that goes for a score. While the runner was somewhere between the 10 and goal line; I see that around the 40 yard line (approx. 30 yards behind the ball carrier) an A lineman give a decleating block (completely clean) against a B player that was jogging. Obviously, I threw the flag. I applied it as a dead ball persoanl foul. I know that by the rule book, if it was a live ball foul we're bringing it back to the spot of the foul.

Any other referees in that situation willing to squint and make a live ball personal foul a dead ball personal foul...provided that the foul has no bearing on the play and the foul is imminant within a second or two?

[DesertZebra]

I've had this happen numerous times, especially at the pee-wee levels. We call it a 'live ball foul treated as a dead ball foul'. Coaches (on both sides) usually do not have a problem with the call when you explain it to them.

Also remember, even if it's legal a block, it could also be considered flagrant.

[Mike L]

However, the other side of the coin is nothing stops that kind of BS faster than taking 6 pts off the board.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Mike L

However, the other side of the coin is nothing stops that kind of BS faster than taking 6 pts off the board.

But that'd be an argument for increasing every type of penalty the game has. You could deduct 6 points from a team's score for every cheap shot.

[Mike L]

No it wouldn't. It's an argument for enforcing the penalty as per the current rule set. It's a live ball foul by the offense behind the basic spot. I have no problem eliminating the "philosphy" of only calling penalties at the point of attack/effect the play when an egrigious safety related foul like this happens. Today is not the football of yore when it was mayhem on the field. What if the next hit causes serious injury because someone decides risking only the PAT is worth payback?

[sloth]

I can see both sides of this one. I sort of go back and forth on what the right thing to do actually is, in the spirit of fair play. I went as far as to ask a couple friends of mine that are HS head coaches (we're church deacons together). As I expected, their first question to me was "...it would depend if I was on offense or defense".

Calling a live ball foul would have resulted in 6 points off the board and put the offense back on the 45-50 yard line. Is that fair punishment? I don't know.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Mike L

No it wouldn't. It's an argument for enforcing the penalty as per the current rule set.

No, it's not. "[N]othing stops that kind of BS faster than taking 6 pts off the board" means only that you're satisfied in that particular instance. It's not an argument for enforcing penalties "by the book" in general, because one could just as easily come up with cases that don't elicit such a statement from you.

It's a live ball foul by the offense behind the basic spot. I have no problem eliminating the "philosphy" of only calling penalties at the point of attack/effect the play when an egrigious safety related foul like this happens. Today is not the football of yore when it was mayhem on the field. What if the next hit causes serious injury because someone decides risking only the PAT is worth payback?

But it has exactly the same risk of causing serious injury whether it takes 6 points off the board or occurs on a play where the penalty has so little effect that the other team declines it. So you can't use the danger of injury as a reason to enforce it in general as a live rather than dead ball foul.

It would not be unreasonable for the rules to penalize fouls with loss of points (or award to the other team of points) in the score irrespective of the play situation. Penalty points are given in other sports, it's just that football has traditionally not done so.

Robert

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by sloth

As a first year referee, I wanted to bounch this off some more seasoned officials.

I have a long run by A that goes for a score. While the runner was somewhere between the 10 and goal line; I see that around the 40 yard line (approx. 30 yards behind the ball carrier) an A lineman give a decleating block (completely clean) against a B player that was jogging. Obviously, I threw the flag. I applied it as a dead ball persoanl foul. I know that by the rule book, if it was a live ball foul we're bringing it back to the spot of the foul.

Any other referees in that situation willing to squint and make a live ball personal foul a dead ball personal foul...provided that the foul has no bearing on the play and the foul is imminant within a second or two?

They chewed me out here as a fan a few months ago for even suggesting that in doubtful cases (where it's a difficult call whether the foul or TD occurred 1st) the presumption of a dead ball foul should be made. And even after one poster who is an official said his association says to lean toward dead ball foul.

My argument was that, first of all it frequently would be a difficult timing call for the official with coverage, second that looking away to see if the ball was still alive distracts one from watching for whether the fouled player retaliates, and third that for the same type of foul, the spot of the foul varies the enforcement spot enormously. The danger to or ill will engendered in the player of B would've been exactly the same had the foul been 30 or 70 yards behind the ball, and the danger or insult to the player of B was the foul's only effect, so why should there effectively be a 40 yard difference in the penalties?

Robert

[big_houn]

Hey Guys, listen I have a question about celebration penalties and how it is applied. So here is the situation

The team has scored the TD. Line up for the p.a.t (2 point conversion), make the 2-point conversion, whistle blows and the play is over. The running back spins the ball in the end zone and draw an excessive celebration call. Now, is the penalty assessed on the kickoff, or do the official take the two points off the score board, assess the 15 yard penalty and force the team to retry the p.a.t..

Now, I was under the impression that once the play was over and the whistle is blown and an unsportsman like celebration penalty happens the penalty yardage is assessed on the kickoff.

I can understand if the penalty happen after the TD, then the penalty is assessed on the p.a.t.. But the penalty happened after the 2-point conversion. Can some please shed some light this for me.....Thanks
!

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by big_houn

Hey Guys, listen I have a question about celebration penalties and how it is applied. So here is the situation

The team has scored the TD. Line up for the p.a.t (2 point conversion), make the 2-point conversion, whistle blows and the play is over. The running back spins the ball in the end zone and draw an excessive celebration call. Now, is the penalty assessed on the kickoff, or do the official take the two points off the score board, assess the 15 yard penalty and force the team to retry the p.a.t..

Now, I was under the impression that once the play was over and the whistle is blown and an unsportsman like celebration penalty happens the penalty yardage is assessed on the kickoff.

I can understand if the penalty happen after the TD, then the penalty is assessed on the p.a.t.. But the penalty happened after the 2-point conversion. Can some please shed some light this for me.....Thanks
!

An unsportsmanlike foul after a try is assessed from the succeeding spot. Points remain on the board.

[big_houn]

Thanks kdf5, I though that was the case. My youth football team was the team in the senario I described, and when the official took the point off the board and applied the penalty I was floored.

When I tried to an explaintion, he told me that the other team had the option having the penalty assessed on the kick off or moving us back 15 yard and retry the p.a.t. We had the monmentum, and that 2 point conversion would have tied the game.

My kids were devasted and that turned the tide of the game, and they regain the momentum. We ended up losing by 15.

[Ed Hickland]

I had one of those decleaters on a TD run Friday night. Coach saw the whole thing and started yelling at the player. To me it was obvious the whistle had blown and no question in my mine the play was dead but had a TD been scored.

Not intentionally but I went downfield to see the result of the play I heard from the sidelines one of the coaches ask, "Did the touchdown count?"

[Forksref]

Live ball.

It's a safety issue. And...I usually believe that I have not been given the authority to change rulings/enforcements. If I do, then what other rules do I think are unfair that I should interpret to my liking??

I have worked at this and have studied the rules and I have been given the authority to apply the rules given to me, even if I don't like them.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Live ball.

It's a safety issue.

What do those 2 issues have to do with each other? Wouldn't it be just as much (if anything, more of) a safety issue if it occurred while the ball was dead? It's the question of whether the ball was alive or dead that you're ruling on, and I don't see how the dangerousness of the act in question bears.

And...I usually believe that I have not been given the authority to change rulings/enforcements. If I do, then what other rules do I think are unfair that I should interpret to my liking??

The question was not whether you would do something contrary to the rules, but where to put the benefit of doubt. In any officiating there's a tendency to make a ruling one way or another in case of doubt. Sometimes the way to rule in such cases is spelled out in the rules themselves, but usually not.

Robert

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by sloth

Any other referees in that situation willing to squint and make a live ball personal foul a dead ball personal foul...provided that the foul has no bearing on the play and the foul is imminant within a second or two?

Do not make it anything. Call it what it is. Nothing more - nothing less. When in doubt...??? I would get the entire crew together to see if anyone had definite knowledge of the status of the ball. If no one did, I would probably go dead ball on one that close.

I had a reverse situation earlier this year. A linebacker took a cheap shot at an offensive lineman on a long run. The hit happened just after the runner entered the end zone. I would have loved to have made it live ball and enforced it on the kickoff, but I didn't, because it wasn't. We went half the distance on the try.