On The Floor Is The Appropriate Description Here ...

[BillyMac]

White 15 is in a prone position on the floor after falling. Before he attempts to stand up, without moving his arms, or legs, or without attempting to roll over, Red 22 contacts the prone White 15, and Red 22 trips, and falls to the floor. Note that I said he trips, not that White 15 tripped him.

NFHS rules. What's the call?

Is the interpretation any different in NCAA rules? I know that this has been discussed on the Forum before, but I wanted a fresh look at the play. I discussed this with a highly regarded colleague last night who works both high school, and college games. He usually does a great job at differentiating the two rule sets, but I thought that there were differing interpretations for this play depending on which rule set in being used.

Comments? Citations?

[bob jenkins]

Yes, it's different. Yes, it's been discussed. A "fresh look" won't change that. Try the search function.

[ballgame99]

#22 has the ball? or is off-ball?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

#22 has the ball? or is off-ball?

Doesn't matter.

[fullor30]

What do you have?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, it's different. Yes, it's been discussed. A "fresh look" won't change that. Try the search function.

A fresh look might, but this isn't a fresh look.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Comments?

All the things from the thread fullor linked above. And the NCAA rule is still as much better than the NFHS rule as it was then.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, it's different. Yes, it's been discussed. A "fresh look" won't change that.

I was hoping that someone could come up with the NFHS case play, or the article from Referee Magazine, as discussed in the link that fullor30 kindly provided. I can't find the case play in the NFHS casebook, and I don't subscribe to Referee Magazine.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I was hoping that someone could come up with the NFHS case play, or the article from Referee Magazine, as discussed in the link that fullor30 kindly provided. I can't find the case play in the NFHS casebook, and I don't subscribe to Referee Magazine.

The NFHS removed that Case Play several years ago without comment.
Jurassic cited it on this forum before though. So if you search with his username, you may find it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS removed that Case Play several years ago without comment. Jurassic cited it on this forum before though. So if you search with his username, you may find it.

Good idea. Thanks Nevadaref. A Forum search yielded no results. I did a Google search and learned a lot about the dinosaurs of the Jurassic Period, but I did find this:

10.6.1 SITUATION E: B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contacts B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor. RULING: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down. (7-4-1, 2)

4-23-1
Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10.6.1 SITUATION E: B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contacts B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor. RULING: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down. (7-4-1, 2)

This casebook play last appeared in the 2004-05 NFHS casebook. Anybody know why is was removed in 2005-06?

[SAJ]

how many times do players fall and then just lay there? they're typically trying to protect themselves (cover up), or moving arms and legs, or attempting to get up. so, if they're doing any of these is it still a non-foul?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAJ

how many times do players fall and then just lay there? they're typically trying to protect themselves (cover up), or moving arms and legs, or attempting to get up. so, if they're doing any of these is it still a non-foul?

Depends. If they were on their feet and moving an equivalent amount, would you have a foul or a train-wreck (incidental contact)?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS removed that Case Play several years ago without comment.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10.6.1 SITUATION E: B1 attempts to steal the ball from stationary A1 who is holding the ball. B1 misses the ball and falls to the floor. In dribbling away, A1 contacts B1's leg, loses control of the ball and falls to the floor. RULING: No infraction or foul has occurred and play continues. Unless B1 made an effort to trip or block A1, he/she is entitled to a position on the court even if it is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down. (7-4-1, 2)

4-23-1
Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This casebook play last appeared in the 2004-05 NFHS casebook. Anybody know why is was removed in 2005-06?

I asked my local interpreter about this play. Here's what he discovered, and note that these are IAABO interpretations, not NFHS interpretations:

"The fact that such casebook play was removed in 2005 edition should be a message to you that that "interpretation" in 2004 was incorrect and no longer applies. This is not about NCAA vs. NFHS as they have same interpretation. The 2004 casebook rule reference is also incorrect. It should have been 4.7.1 and 2. Just to be certain, I checked with the IAABO office and here is the response I received:

"B-1 is not in legal guarding position. Is it legal for a player to fall to the floor (provided he/she was not holding the ball) or to lay on the floor? Yes. However, it is not a legal position when contact, beyond incidental to the play, occurs. Ruling for the situation which you describe is a foul on B-1. Rule Reference 4.23.1.""

So you don't have to look them up:

4-7-1: Blocking is illegal personal contact which impedes the progress of
an opponent with or without the ball.

4-23-1: Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an
offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard
and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is
entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first
without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder,
hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position
if contact occurs.

Talk amongst yourselves.

[BillyMac]

10-6-1: A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress
of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s), or by
bending his/her body into other than a normal position; nor use any rough tactics.