Injury come off platform?

[IHSAref]

When there is an injury where the player is down for a while, do you come down from the platform to judge if the player is unconscious of do you let the umpire handle it all?

[MCBear]

Let your Umpire/R2 handle it. As Referee/R1, you are an information collector so stay on the stand and let others do their jobs.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by MCBear

Let your Umpire/R2 handle it. As Referee/R1, you are an information collector so stay on the stand and let others do their jobs.

NFHS Rule 5.3.3.18 Referee Responsibilities: "The referee shall determine if a player is unconscious or apparently unconscious."
NFHS Rule 5.4 Umpire Responsibilities has "no mention" of these duties, nor any guidance towards that duty.
NFHS Rule 5.4.3a: "The umpire shall assist the referee by ruling upon situations which are clearly out of the referee's view." But the injured player is NOT "clearly out of the referee's view."

By the book, I see this as a clearly defined Referee duty. MCBear, maybe you can help clarify your reasoning. Logic leads me to wanting it be an Umpire duty, but the rules say differently.

Additionally, I can't remember about IHSA (NFHS), but definitely USAV & PAVO made it crystal clear "Do NOT touch the injured player" and I have followed that guidance implicitly. The only exception would be for life-saving measures. Ironically, NFHS wants us to "determine if a player is unconscious"... wouldn't that require us to touch the injured player?

(I hear some needed NFHS Rulebook changes/clarifications on the horizon)

[MCBear]

As the referee, if there is a player unconscious or apparently unconscious, I am going to let medical personnel make the determination. I am NOT going to touch the player and I am not going to get off the stand unless the delay in resuming play is going to be an extended time-period. I do not need to physically involved to be able to make a determination. As I said previously, the Referee/R1 is an information gatherer. I will make a decision based on the information that I gather from knowledgeable sources.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by MCBear

As the referee, if there is a player unconscious or apparently unconscious, I am going to let medical personnel make the determination...I do not need to physically involved to be able to make a determination...the Referee/R1 is an information gatherer. I will make a decision based on the information that I gather from knowledgeable sources.

MCBear, I agree with what you're saying, and I think it's the best action. I'm just trying to understand how putting your duty (determining consciousness) onto your Umpire parallels the NFHS Rulebook. Are you saying that you would: 1. Remain on the stand, 2. Instruct the U to search out medical personnel, 3. Allow the medical personnel to determine unconsciousness, 4. Inform the U so that the U can confer with that coach regarding continuation of match after injury (while making no effort towards encouraging the injured player off the court).
Am I close to what you're saying? Why do you involve the U if the NFHS Rules state, specifically, that the R determines unconsciousness? The U is not allowed to call overlap on the serving team, and it is a valid protest by the serving team's coach since it is clearly not a U's responsibility... why the disparity for duties related to unconsciousness?
I want to make as many decisions as predictably "by the book" as possible, and I'm having trouble understanding this one.

[TimTaylor]

Retrozetti,

Let me reemphasize what Jan said: The rule only says it is the Referee's duty to make the determination, not what information he/she has to use to make that decision or who they may involve in doing so.

Anytime a player goes down with an apparent injury the R1 should immediately blow the ball dead and summon the injured player's coach onto the court, who in turn can summon the trainer or request EMS if they think it's warranted. The R1 is in the best position to deal with the players still on the court - i.e, summon the floor captains to the stand & tell them where you want them to gather their teammates. Trust your U to deal with the folks on the bench and relay whatever information you might need.

Neither official should get directly involved in or do anything that might interrfere with the care of the injured player. Let the trained people taking care of the injured player do their job and stay out of their way. Get what you need after the fact if necessary.

I hope it never happens to you, but if it does, trust me - you won't need to get off the stand to make the determination.

[Retrozetti]

Tim & Jan, thanks for the guidance. It certainly helps where the NFHS Rulebook & Casebook are "ambiguous." Once, I experienced a player jam their finger "during" a rally, but since they were mobile and stepped off the court, play continued. The "procedures for apparently unconscious" situation and definitely the "jammed finger, but steps off the court" situation would be very helpful Case Situations. How many R's know to allow play to continue if an injured player (jammed finger) steps off the court (not pose a safety hazard)? Yes, they are few-and-far-between situations, and chances are that an R will side-with-caution and stop the rally, but for us newer R's, it would be nice to know ahead-of-time what proper action should/should not be taken. And having the Rulebook clearly state "Do not touch the player, except for life-saving measures" would be a great thing to have included. Thanks again Tim & Jan

[Andy]

Retrozetti - reading between the lines of your posts, I believe that you may be taking the "determine if the player is unconscious or apparently unconscious" too literally. If I'm off the mark, I apologize.

Here is my take:

I am not a medical professional, I'm sure that some of my partners over the years have some medical training, but I would venture to say that a good portion of them do not.

My training has been to interpret that statement in the book ("The referee shall determine if a player is unconscious or apparently unconscious.") more as "in your judgement, can the player continue in the contest without a potential for futher damage to him/herself." Since the NFHS rules are written to emphasize safety, I have been told to err on the side of caution.

Example - I was officiating a girls basketball game several years ago. One player dived toward a loose ball that was near the sideline. Her dive and slide across the floor ended with a loud clunk as her head slammed into the bottom row of the bleachers. I immediately stopped the game and called the coach onto the court to tend to her, I went over as well. I noticed that she did not lose consciousness, as in out cold, but there was a glassy, glazed over look in her eyes. After the coach was done tending to her and helped her back to the bench, I informed him that I was declaring her ineligible for the remainder of the contest unless she was released by a doctor. I never had to touch her and I was able to make that determination in a very short amount of time.

[MCBear]

Toolman & Andy, Thanks for the posts clarifying the procedure for handling unconscious or apparently unconscious players. Very nice job, guys!

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by MCBear

Toolman & Andy, Thanks for the posts clarifying the procedure for handling unconscious or apparently unconscious players. Very nice job, guys!

Yes, and thank you Jan as well. This is a great site to learn from, ask questions, and get some very helpful advice. Actually, I especially like Felix Madera's replies/advice... he references the actual Rule# which allows me to go to the book and see his reasoning. As an official just starting my 2nd year officiating sanctioned (non-Park District) volleyball, I'm absorbing all the information I can get my fingers on, but I don't have the years of experience some of you have; so I appreciate your patience and guidance (especially when I'm persistent in trying to get to the root philosophy of the rule). I hope you all remember those early days in your officiating... so, thanks for your assistance, guidance and patience. This is a great website.