Coach submits lineup backwards

[MCBear]

jkumpire, what you are suggesting is not something to consider. You have no basis in rule to consider what you are suggesting. It doesn't matter if it is a Varsity, JV, Frosh/soph or Junior High match - if there is nothing in writing to back what you are suggesting, it is not proper procedure and should not be done.

Originally Posted by jkumpire

If an assigner or evaluator asked me why I "ate the call" allowed the changes I would say:

1. The coach said it was her/his mistake, what can I do about it.
2. This is not a varsity game, it is a JV/Soph. game.
3. I thought that it would be in the best interest of the players to make the change.

1 - You say that you understand, however, you are not allowed to take that into consideration. The lineup as it was submitted has to stand for the game.
2 - Where is there any differentiation designated in the rules for this situation? There isn't any, so follow the rule as printed.
3 - Where can you find specific justification for this in any rules book? Sorry, but it is in the best interest of the players to learn how to deal with errors that happen.

We do not judge intent only what is actually done. The lineup was submitted in the wrong order. TOO BAD! If the time limit for submission has passed, and there are six legal numbers, the lineup is legal and has to be lived with.

Your heart may be in the right place, but that and 50 cents will buy you a cup of coffee (but not at Starbucks!).

[FMadera]

Just a word of advice...

You potentially get into a lot of trouble if you actively make decisions based on the idea that one level isn't as important as another level.

To you, it may not be.

To the players and coaches, it's every bit as important to them.

[TimTaylor]

I'll second what McBear & Felix said, and add the following:

Most of the time experience is the best teacher. The reality of youth sports is that you can warn, cajole or attempt to accomodate until you're blue in the face, but until the players and coaches are forced to live with the consequences of their mistakes they really don't pay attention. Shielding them from those consequences, however well intended, is not doing them a favor, but in reality is doing them a disservice.

[MCBear]

Well said, Toolman!

[jkumpire]

Men,

I hope I don't sound snotty, but:

I've officiated 7 sports on the HS and college level for 25+ years. I understand where you are coming from, and 99% of the time I totally agree. I also know from coaching at HS and JH how important lower level games are to the participants, and coaches. Anytime I cross the lines, be it in JH Volleyball or college level Baseball, I take the game, the rules, and the sport very seriously, since for that short time, they are my kids trying to play a game they want to play.

But when someone unintentionally makes a gross error that ruins the chance for sub-varsity level players to get better and improve, I think it behooves us to try and find a solution for the benefit of the players playing, even if we bend the rulebook into a pretzel. And if I was the opposing coach, in the interest of my kids playing, I would be inclined to agree to a change.

A paperwork error is not a coaching mistake per se, but a human error. That is how I see it here. I won't continue the discussion any longer, I just hope you see where I was coming from with this.

[OmniSpiker]

I like to say that there is an "art" to refereeing. While there is responsibility to the techinicality of the rules of the sport, there is also the social aspect of promoting the sport. If it should benefit the players, it is the leniency shown by judgment of the referee as attributed as wisdom. Hence we say we bend the rules.

As a player, there are many fundamental skills to ball handling that the rules are not applicable to. Yet, from a referee's viewpoint, it has to be black and white, either one thing or another. Minor paperwork error...no problem. Ugly-dirty play action...no problem. Blurry furious ball handling...no problem. Spectacular saving catastrophe...no problem. We don't need to always penalize the participants of the sport. We should promote the spirit of sportsmanship, allow the players to compete their game against each other and not against the referee corp.

[mbyron]

I just finished my first season of volleyball. I worked 39 matches, all but 7 of them JV/V.

In that span, I had some partners who were more like Jan and Felix. They knew the rules and applied them, gently but firmly. Their philosophy seems to be to teach the players about the game by requiring them to adhere to the rules that define the game.

I had partners who were more like jkumpire, in that they had a philosophy of officiating that treats the rules more flexibly, depending on the level, the attitudes of the coaches and players, and the game situation. Their philosophy seems to be that there's more to the game than rigid adherence to the rules.

I've tried to put these points as sympathetically as possible. I don't think the philosophies are compatible -- I don't think that one official can coherently aim for both.

I have also found that the officials who make their way up the officiating food chain tend more toward the former view than the latter. I notice, for example, that jkumpire is arguing about a MS match, and that Jan and Felix both do NCAA. (I should say that I have no idea whether jkumpire works NCAA or wants to -- I'm noting only the case in this thread and my own observations around here.)

The problem with leniency in the long run, as has been pointed out, is that one has no justification for it when confronted with an opposing coach who knows the rules.

[Back In The Saddle]

I worked a state tourney play-in match last night. One team had very few problems, and nothing out of the ordinary (the odd double-hit, one lift, a few net and center line violations). The other team had a similar helping of those issues. Plus some improper servers and illegal substitutions. In fact, I had to explain to their coach how one goes about subbing for the player the libero replaces. It was all news to her (though she was entirely positive and pleasant about it).

The bottom line...

Here it is state tourney time. In a crucial match, one team came ready to play, and the other was still learning to play. Those mistakes cost them points in an otherwise very competitive match. And now, they're sitting home talking about "next year."

Did those girls and their coaches and their programs and the sport really benefit from officials who chose to overlook those issues in previous matches? Or would they have been better served to have been held accountable for knowing and playing by all the rules long before last night?

Your call.

[TimTaylor]

mbyron,

Actually the match in question in the original post was Soph (JV?) level.

No one is advocating being draconian. Ball handling is a good example. You always have to call the obvious. Beyond that officials can and should adjust how they call things like doubles on the sets based on the level & capability of the players - the most common approach is to call to the skill level of the higher skilled team.

Ask the coaches and I think you'll find that the two things they overwhelmingly want most from the officials are consistency and fairness. The same goes for assigners - they'd much prefer sending a known quantity over a loose cannon to do a match. If you look at the type of official that you see as moving up the officiating food chain, I think you'll find those two qualities.

[jkumpire]

Ah men,

I feel like I'm being taking out of context here, like I am some kind of yahoo who does what he wants to and not follows the rule book or anything like that. I am being called a flexible official, as opposed to others who do it the right way.

Showing some grace to someone who made a mistake is some we all ought to try and do here, and if we can't, we can't. But JV coaches are less experienced that varsity coaches and have some of the same pressures varsity coaches have too. If someone makes an innocent mistake, which this coach did, I just have have a hard time saying all the time just: "Life's tough, you made the mistake."

And while I don't call NCAA VB (yet), I do other sports on the college level, so I understand the mindset of a college official. Don't typecast my work as an official by one post, and one "out of the box idea here." And next season, if you want come watch me work, or I'll come to your place and work, and you can judge for yourself if I am too pliable or not.

[Back In The Saddle]

jk,

Please do not think I'm attacking you. I'm sure you're a great official. In my years I've met many great officials whose philosophies fall either on the side of firm enforcement or showing grace. I have tried both, and I find that as time goes on I'm finding enforcement produces better results. And it certainly produces more consistent results.

But my mind is not closed on the matter. I have vigorously argued against your stance, but I'm willing to consider a counter argument compelling enough to change my mind.

BITS

[MCBear]

The real problem with the "grace" philosophy is that, in my experience, the coaches know who the officials are who will let them get away with stuff. By the same token, they know who the officials are who make them "toe the line" and know what they are doing so there aren't any snafu's. I had a discussion this past week with a varsity coach of one of the stronger teams in a league that I am assigned to officiate and she was of the very strong opinion that I was one of the few who know the rules and enforce them (which she appreciates and wants done all the time). Unfortunately, I only work one or two of her matches during the season and the other officials who work her matches do not always follow the rules that are in the book. Do I need to say that what she experiences is a lack of consistency from match to match?

That same day, the JV coach at that school messed up her line-up, not once - but TWICE! First, she listed #9 as a starter for Game 1, but #9 was actually wearing #13. In addition, there wasn't a #13 on the roster. I could have let her change the numbers on both the roster and lineup without penalty, but then I would have been ignoring 7-1-1 Penalty 1 and 7-1-2 Penalty 1. So, there was a penalty point given to the visitor since we had to change the home roster after the submission deadline. Then, there was another point given to the visitor because the home line-up had to be changed to reflect reality (and no, we could not take #9 out and put in #13 since they were the same player but 9 was her green jersey and 13 was her white one). So, the visitor got 2 points to start the match.

Then, after the coach submitted the lineup for Game 2, as I was getting ready to check their lineup, she told me that she had put #15 in the starting lineup and the player's number was #10 (again, there was no #15 to put on the floor). So, to start Game 2, they were assessed a LOR and the visitor got the penalty point and the ball.

So, I am hoping that you can see that there is no such thing as a minor administrative error. I don't know of any way to judge the severity of a rules violation. It either is one or it is not. And, if it is a rules violation that is covered, we follow the book.

One of the reasons that we have so much trouble in officiating volleyball is that most of us who officiate it have not played the sport and do not have the familiarity with it that we do with basketball, baseball and/or football. It takes time to develop an understanding of the game, to know what and where we are supposed to be looking during play and to understand the rules that sometimes do not make sense to us even after we read them a million times. Then it takes more time to realize that in volleyball, there are no trivial rules (even if we don't completely agree with those who write the rules each year).

So, for those of us who no longer officiate other sports, but do only volleyball and officiate it on multiple levels and rules codes, it becomes harder to enforce the rules as we know they are written, when others don't.

[jkumpire]

I understand your pain, since I played many years ago, the changes are something else.

I find for me that consistency is the hard problem with me, as a newer official. But, I am getting better, I am (thank goodness) a guy with a few years experience, not one year of experience a few times.