Coach submits lineup backwards

[Back In The Saddle]

Soph match this week. I'm the U and while checking the lineups (what is the proper terminology for making sure the players on the floor match the lineup?) before the first game, the girls are way out of rotation. I grab the written lineup, because suddenly I don't trust that I copied it correctly onto my card. I copied it correctly. The girls are just not where they should be.

It turns out the coach copied her lineup backwards. She quietly inquired if she could change it. I told her that we have to go with what she submitted.

Needless to say, the girls had some trouble adjusting to being backwards. Since it was only a soph game, and since it was the coaches screwup, I did work a little harder to fix obvious overlaps before the serve during the first few rotations.

Would you have handled this any differently?

[Andy]

Wouldn't the coach have the option of changing the lineup and accepting the LOR penalty to begin the game?

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by Andy

Wouldn't the coach have the option of changing the lineup and accepting the LOR penalty to begin the game?

7.1.2.A seems to say that if the lineup is legal (not necessarily "correct," mind you), then the coach cannot choose to take a penalty and change the lineup.

[Scrapper1]

Could the coach use subs to get everybody into the proper order before the game even starts? In sub-varsity matches, my state uses unlimited substitutions.

[TimTaylor]

Felix is correct - if the lineup is legal, the coach has to go with what they submit, that's the penalty. There is no option to take a penalty to change it.

Scrapper - since a player can only substitute into or out of one position in the serving order in a game, I don't see how your solution would accomplish anything.

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Could the coach use subs to get everybody into the proper order before the game even starts? In sub-varsity matches, my state uses unlimited substitutions.

NFHS does not allow substitutions prior to the ball being put into play for a game.

[MCBear]

Felix, you and I know that, but Scrapper's state uses NCAA rules. Regardless of the rules set, there is no way to correct the coach's goof. Since it is a legal line-up, they just have to play the game in the weird positions that the coach put them in.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

Scrapper - since a player can only substitute into or out of one position in the serving order in a game, I don't see how your solution would accomplish anything.

You're right. Duh! Sorry.

[jkumpire]

Why not just eat the call, let the JV coach make changes and go on?

Yes, I know the coach should know better, but if they are still in the developmental stage, I'd think real hard about letting her make the changes to what lineup she wants to make it her intended lineup..

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Why not just eat the call, let the JV coach make changes and go on?

Yes, I know the coach should know better, but if they are still in the developmental stage, I'd think real hard about letting her make the changes to what lineup she wants to make it her intended lineup..

I understand what you're saying. And to some extent, I agree.

But, my feeling was it would open a big ol' can of red wrigglers. If I were the opposing coach, I would want to know why my opponent got to change her lineup in direct contradiction of the rules. And, if I were a PITA opposing coach, I would probably ask what other rules you'd be setting aside.

I had a match a couple of weeks ago where the visiting coach and I chatted before the game and she made it a point to tell me that she's the kind of coach who cares very little about who wins and mostly about the girls. Which, of course, means just the opposite (why do coaches do crap like this?). In the frosh match, the home team libero's number was a dup. of one of the starters. Sadly I didn't check the rosters and catch this (bad, bad BITS). But since I'm still a rookie and trying to get a feel for how stuff is typically handled in my area, I ask my R if she wants to enforce this. R says don't worry about it, just make sure the book knows. Sure enough, "altruistic" visiting coach wants to know why I'm not enforcing the uniform rule. Then she informs me that this coach has been getting away with this all year, while faking like it's a one time oversight.

Try to be a nice guy, try to not let technicalities get in the way of what should be a developmental experience, and what does it get me? Played by one coach and catching grief about it from the other!

All things considered, I'm thinking that the mixed-up lineup coach will not make that mistake again (possibly in her entire career), there was no opposing coach's reaction to address, and since it was a soph. match, who cares if they were all messed up for one game? But in reality, if it were the varsity match and the lineup were the wrong-way-round, it still wouldn't be my problem.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the frosh coach with the libero number issue is still playing officials like she apparently has all year long. And I lost an opportunity to gain some respect from her "altrusistic" opponent.

PS. Sorry, don't mean to unload on you for the frustration I've felt from my own mistakes. But you did ask, "why not"

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Why not just eat the call, let the JV coach make changes and go on?

Yes, I know the coach should know better, but if they are still in the developmental stage, I'd think real hard about letting her make the changes to what lineup she wants to make it her intended lineup..

______________________________
jku,
I'd agree with you in a Jr. high match, but they the time its JV in HS, they should be past things like this. RR

[MCBear]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

If it's a JV Game....
Why not just eat the call, let the JV coach make changes and go on?

Yes, I know the coach should know better, but if they are still in the developmental stage, I'd think real hard about letting her make the changes to what lineup she wants to make it her intended lineup..

There are a couple of reasons:
(1) Incorrect procedure - nowhere in the rules do you have any basis for doing what you are suggesting.
(2) The lineup that the coach submitted is a legal lineup although not in the order that was intended. There is no rules allowance to change the lineup once it is submitted unless there is a non-existent number on the lineup sheet.

As BITS posted, failing to enforce the proper rules opens a can of worms for you and for all officials who follow you in subsequent matches. As a mentor of mine once said, "There are winning situations and there are learning situations." This is a learning situation for the coach who submitted the messed up lineup.

The coach turned in the lineup in wrong sequence and it is after the deadline for submission. Too bad, so sad - they have to live with it for the game. As an official, don't add to the problem by going for a fix where you let the coach change what was turned in.

Originally Posted by refnrev

jku,
I'd agree with you in a Jr. high match, but they the time its JV in HS, they should be past things like this. RR

Sorry, rev, but IMO this is a totally wrong response. We want those who are learning the game to learn the correct procedures. There is no justification for letting the change happen just because it is at a Junior High level. You are on a slippery slope anytime you decide that you know more than those who wrote the rules and, therefore, make changes based on your feelings rather than on what is in the rules book. Unless you have a written directive from the state association, league or commissioner allowing variance from the rules as they are written in the book, enforce the rules as they are written and currently interpreted. Doing so will be equitable and fair for everyone and they will learn the proper procedures and how to deal with this type of situation.

[jkumpire]

I understand where you guys are coming from here, rules violations, they are in HS, etc. I sympathise with the coach "rule set aside" deal too, if you have a jerk, you probably can't do it.

But, I still think you need to think about doing this in this case, if you can get away with it. What is best for the players (on both sides) in this situation? Heck, go to the other coach if you need to and say, "Coach, we have a clerical error, let's let them fix it."

I wouldn't do it in all circumstances, but it is something to think about doing.

[MCBear]

jkumpire, there is the letter of the rule and the intent of the rule. What you are suggesting does not have any support anywhere in any rules set. If there is a screw-up, then it has to be lived with unless it happens prior to the stated deadlines in the rules codes. Teach everyone the proper way to do things and other officials will not have to deal with a problem that you pass on to them.

If I am the opposing coach or your assigner, I will be asking you to show me in the rules exactly where you found justification for your decision. Then I will probably not be very kind to you for creating your own rules.

[jkumpire]

So?

Look, in the games I do I am very much a rule book guy. But all I am saying is that this is something to consider.

If an assigner or evaluator asked me why I "ate the call" allowed the changes I would say:

1. The coach said it was her/his mistake, what can I do about it.
2. This is not a varsity game, it is a JV/Soph. game.
3. I thought that it would be in the best interest of the players to make the change.

Look, when I am down I make it a point to check for mistakes like this, I had a game where the coach was about to hand in her lineup, and she goes "O no, I put this in backwards". She fixed it, and all was well. I just hate to see a clerical error end up cosing someone a game.

I mean it is a sub varsity level game.